Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[RTKDCMB]

Fighting to win would help people survive.

Unless they miss obvious opportunities to flee because they want to 'win'.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Outdated game.

How so?

 

[drop bear]

What you are describing is only one aspect of training. This wasn't a conversations about only free all in sparring, it was about training. Wanting to win in that type of sparring is fine, but it is the culmination of everything else you do in training where wanting to win is just a distraction.

Tez3 and I have both pointed out numerous problems with a competitive mindset in training and I've not seen one counter to all those downsides.

What I believe Tez3 was trying to get across was that if you are faced with life or death, thinking about winning the fight is not the same as thinking about surviving. Fighting might not even be the best option but the bravado of competition might lead you to feel otherwise.

Also this juvenile nonsense about how all SD martial artists think just lowers the tone of the whole thread.
Actually what happened is a number of people with many years of experience with real life or death violence, from bouncers to prison guards, saw how their own experience matched against what they had learned in martial arts and combat sports and were kind enough to share that.knowledge.

Sport is sport, from boxing to Shobu ippon kumite, you can be competitive in all but if real life throws something unfamiliar, like a knife, or a gang, then the mindset you need to get a trophy might not necessarily be the one you need to walk away.

But as I said, the discussion was around training so we're going off topic...

Yes I am talking about one particular aspect of training which is black belts training self defence and being terrible at it. And the solution to that particular issue.

Trying to fight to survive will get you beaten up faster than fighting to win. Once you are in a fight you have to be mindfull of that fight. Not trying to half fight and half run at the same time.

Sigh. All those people with many years. (Here we go again). OK how many life or death fights have you been in? I have never been killed or killed anybody. So mabye I can learn stuff.

Fighting for a trophy is a terrible argument. It assumes you have superior skill ability or mindset to someone who has a trophy. And that is not able to be proved.

And in regards to being juvenile. All we have been doing this whole thread is beating each other up with unfounded assumptions which would have to be the definition of juvenile.

I just thought I would have a go at it as it looked like fun.

 

[Tez3]

Fighting to win dosent help people survive?

Come on seriously?

They will be focusing on winning. In your example earlier that was hitting someone with a 2by 4 rather than do a drill properly.

The idea of a competitive mindset and a survival mindset being different is a fabrication to make self defence people feel more comfortable with training that is just not as effective.

When you do a resisted drill you need the other person to use every tool in his disposal to win at the task at hand. You use every tool to resist him.

This way you get an idea of what it takes to resist a person who really wants to beat you rather than someone who is just trying to help you look good and feel nice.

This is ego not competitiveness. Ego will get you beaten, it will make you lose both in life and competition, there is a reason people talk about 'no mind' in martial arts, it's because of ego and this false 'competitiveness'.

You don't know that ALL black belt training is as you think it is, you don't know how many of us have actually had to fight to their lives, you just don't know.

 

[drop bear]

How so?

It takes 3 days to play the thing. Who has time for that.

And silly hats.

 

[Tez3]

It takes 3 days to play the thing. Who has time for that.

And silly hats.

Not when the Aussies play, it takes under 2 hours to lose. We will see on Thursday if they make a fight of it when there's nothing at stake but pride, that's character, it will get you further than ego.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It takes 3 days to play the thing. Who has time for that.

And silly hats.

Unless it is a one dayer or a 20/20.

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK how many life or death fights have you been in? I have never been killed or killed anybody.

I have never lost a fight to the death.

 

[DaveB]

Yes I am talking about one particular aspect of training which is black belts training self defence and being terrible at it. And the solution to that particular issue.

Trying to fight to survive will get you beaten up faster than fighting to win. Once you are in a fight you have to be mindfull of that fight. Not trying to half fight and half run at the same time.

We don't really need to explain that defeating an assailant is preferable to getting beaten up, but being aware of other ways to end the confrontation is also important. Fighting a rear gaurd action while retreating may well be preferable if you can get to a place of safety or to a means of escape. If you are faced with more than one opponent you may have no other choice.

Sigh. All those people with many years. (Here we go again). OK how many life or death fights have you been in? I have never been killed or killed anybody. So mabye I can learn stuff.

From the patronising "sigh" I presume you magic all your knowledge from the air. The rest of us who aren't so lucky do need to find people qualified in or experienced enough to codify knowledge in a given field. The first two in the fields of Self Defense and Martial arts to pop in my head are linked below.
WELCOME TO GEOFF THOMPSON.COM
Home

Personally I've been lucky enough to have had backup close by so non of my confrontations turned lethal, but in the 10 years I policed the streets of north London I had my share of violent encounters.

Fighting for a trophy is a terrible argument. It assumes you have superior skill ability or mindset to someone who has a trophy. And that is not able to be proved.

This makes no sense and I cant see how it relates to my post. No one made any arguments about fighting for trophies. What was said was that the mentality needed for one thing might not be the mentality needed for another.

And in regards to being juvenile. All we have been doing this whole thread is beating each other up with unfounded assumptions.

The only unfounded assumption I observed was yours about SD karateka. The other posts appeared to be talking from personal experience, which is a bit different.

To be clear, no one that I can see is decrying sport martial arts or MMA or anything like that. The training given to competition fighters is in many ways what one needs to build competence in dealing with attacks. However the idea that during training you need to be in competition with your training partners and trying to win against them is flawed for a number of reasons already stated and still not refuted.

 

[Tez3]

in the 10 years I policed the streets of north London I had my share of violent encounters.

For that, respect sir.

 

[drop bear]

We don't really need to explain that defeating an assailant is preferable to getting beaten up, but being aware of other ways to end the confrontation is also important. Fighting a rear gaurd action while retreating may well be preferable if you can get to a place of safety or to a means of escape. If you are faced with more than one opponent you may have no other choice.

Are you going to do this on every thread?

Each thread has a focus which is what we discuss. In this case it is kata and drills and what the op sees as an issue with the practice of.

So does deescalateion work as part of an overall defence plan? Yes.

Is escaping a reasonable tactic? Yes.

Is that something you would routinely practice when doing drills. Probably not as it would get really distracting. And even if you did when you actually do engage the guy you would still want to do it in a competitive nature.

 

[drop bear]

From the patronising "sigh" I presume you magic all your knowledge from the air. The rest of us who aren't so lucky do need to find people qualified in or experienced enough to codify knowledge in a given field. The first two in the fields of Self Defense and Martial arts to pop in my head are linked below.
WELCOME TO GEOFF THOMPSON.COM
Home

Personally I've been lucky enough to have had backup close by so non of my confrontations turned lethal, but in the 10 years I policed the streets of north London I had my share of violent encounters.

An appeal to authority really should be a last resort as it is too easily used by people who do not have an actual answer they can draw from experience.

My Sigh is that this "I train for the deadly streets and so have the final say on all things violence" is something that gets thrown at me constantly. Methods used by these unnamed bouncers and soldiers so therefore work even if they either don't work or don't make sense.

Geoff Thompson does a drill called animal day.

So back to the idea about competitive drills. That would be an example of what I am trying to put forwards.

Not to that level for this discussion though.

 

[drop bear]

This makes no sense and I cant see how it relates to my post. No one made any arguments about fighting for trophies. What was said was that the mentality needed for one thing might not be the mentality needed for another.

OK. You assume that there is a difference and there is not. The mentality that would make you win a trophy will also give you a better chance in a self defence. But saying trophy sound like it should be different.

And while we are discussing patronising............

Have you looked into sports psychology?

Five Components of Mental Preparation Sports Psychology Today

 

[drop bear]

The only unfounded assumption I observed was yours about SD karateka. The other posts appeared to be talking from personal experience, which is a bit different.

To be clear, no one that I can see is decrying sport martial arts or MMA or anything like that. The training given to competition fighters is in many ways what one needs to build competence in dealing with attacks. However the idea that during training you need to be in competition with your training partners and trying to win against them is flawed for a number of reasons already stated and still not refuted.

That is because my unfounded assumption is counter to yours. It is a method of discussion I see when people never have to back up what they say. I think I will coin the term "sensei speak."

This is where you get to a point that because nobody ever pulls you up on your inconsistencies you assume you are constantly dropping pearls of wisdom every time you open your mouth.

Watch almost any Steven segal interview.

 

[drop bear]

For that, respect sir.

And ditto.

 

[drop bear]

Unless it is a one dayer or a 20/20.

Or indoor cricket. Or as tez said the Australian team.

But yeah dumb sport. Boring to watch,boring to play and it takes too long.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Boring to watch,boring to play and it takes too long.

At least it is more interesting than soccer.

 

[Tez3]

At least it is more interesting than soccer.

Soccer can be very interesting the problem is the attitude of players these days. Their competitive attitude has lead to faking injuries to get penalties, breaking other players legs etc. All they see is winning and the money that means to them. It's a lesson in how not to be negatively competitive. Too much ego, self pride and over confidence, never a good thing in martial arts either.
I think the problem is that a competitive attitude is fine at the right time and place, in competitions. For self defence a sense of self preservation is better, the two may not be far from each other but when people say 'competiveness' it brings to mind ego and wanting to win by fighting and proving one is the better fighter whereas for self defence an attitude of 'I'm going to be the one walking away from this relatively unharmed by any means even leaving without fighting' is a better one, competitiveness conjures up heat whereas self preservation is cool and clear headed.
When you say competitiveness when sparring, it brings to mind this winning at all costs and not learning attitude. When we spar and we do spar hard it's not competitiveness that drives us, we don't have to 'prove' anything ( another thing 'competitiveness brings to mind) we are trying to become better, to achieve more than we did last time, to expand out knowledge of what we can do, 'winning' against out opponent isn't the first thing we think of. We can stop during sparring and my 'opponent' will show me something I could have done better or how to do something different, it will still be hard sparring but not with the aim to win against each other, the idea is that we both improve. Many of ours do compete and then the competitiveness does come in to it, many of ours also play rugby, it's a big army sport but again in their training it's all about gaining skills, fitness and team playing.
I can see why you are saying 'competitiveness' but I just think it's giving the wrong impression. Perhaps we need to find another word we can agree on.

 

[Tez3]

'Robustly'? One should spar robustly.

 

[Paul_D]

The idea of a competitive mindset and a survival mindset being different is a fabrication to make self defence people feel more comfortable with training that is just not as effective.

Not only would I disagree but I would go so far as to say that a competitive mind-set will foster thinking that is the exact opposite of what is needed for SD.

How will a competitive “I must beat this guy “ I must win” mind-set foster the attitude of “If I apologise, this conformation will end” or “If I walk away this wont; end in violmce”? It doesn’t, instead it makes the classic mistake that lot of male marital artists make of thinking that SD and fighting are the same thing, and that all SD scenarios must end in violence which you need to “win”.

The idea of the competitive mind-set and the survival mind-set being the same is a is not only a mistake to make people, who confusing fighting and SD as the same thing, believe their fight training is preparing them for SD, but it also demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the realities of civilian violence.

Fighting and SD are not, and have never been, the same thing, and the skills, the mind-set required for success in one will not only not guarantee success in the other, but can often develop skills and thinking that are the exact opposite of what is required for success in the other.

If I run away from a SD scenario I have won, because I got home safely. If I run away from an opponent in the ring, I lose because I am disqualified. Same action, different outcome, why, because the criteria used to decide success changes dependant on circumstance. The competitive mind-set fosters the attitude that the other person must be defeated. Survival mind-set fosters the thinking that I need to try avoid confrontation.