QUestion for the Libs...

[Phoenix44]

I don't see how this relates. I have heard it said, but I don't get the connection....the gov. isn't stepping up to help in any context, least of all help with medical expenses.

Ever hear of Social Security Disability?

The only time I hear the government taking a part in payment is if the victim is elderly (medicaid/care) or destitute. Niether or which have an abudance of motorcycle rider representation.

Funny thing, but once you bash your brains in, you end up becoming destitute real fast. Especially if you're a single adult. Or one of the 45 million people without health insurance.

And we're not talking about "the government." We're talking about our tax money.

 

[psi_radar]

From the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regarding medical costs of helmeted vs. non-helmeted riders:


http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/Motorcycle_HTML/overview.html#5


Here's the conclusion if you don't feel like reading the whole thing:

"Most of the studies reviewed in the course of this project examined the impact of safety helmets or helmet laws on motorcycle injuries. These studies consistently found that helmet use reduced the fatality rate, the probability and severity of head injuries, the cost of medical treatment, the length of hospital stay, the necessity for special medical treatments (including ventilation, intubation, and follow-up care), and the probability of long-term disability. This work reinforces similar conclusions from earlier studies.

A number of the reviewed studies examined the question of who pays for medical costs. Only slightly more than half of motorcycle crash victims have private health insurance coverage. For patients without private insurance, a majority of medical costs are paid by the government. Some crash patients are covered directly through Medicaid or another government program. Others, who are listed by the hospital as “self-pay” status, might eventually become indigent and qualify for Medicaid when their costs reach a certain level.

While the literature has widely explored acute medical costs, research is sparse in the areas of long-term medical and work-loss costs. For victims of serious head injury, acute hospital care might be only the first stage of a long and costly treatment program. For many crash victims, lost wages from missed work days will outweigh medical costs. And for victims who are permanently disabled, their earnings might be reduced for the rest of their lives. More research is needed on these subjects to provide a more comprehensive pictu re of the full cost of motorcycle crash injuries."

 

[TonyM.]

Why do liberals get the tag for helmut laws. Wasn't it the Reagan administration that jammed the 55 mph speed limit down our throats?
We have these laws because of human nature. If we make people legislators, they will legislate. They just can't help themselves.

 

[loki09789]

Yeah... when I ride to 7-11 to get my cup of Bush/Kerry coffee, I often will not put my Helmet on...

Why? Its a 4 block ride on a 25mph sidestreet.

Can I still be killed in an accident? Absolutley. Is it as likely as if I got on an Interstate highway and went 90? No...

SHould I have the choice what to do with my body, as much as say, any woman trying to decide if she wants to give birth? Or maybe as much as you have deciding if you want to posion yourself with alcohol?

Techno,
How DARE you use a consistent reasoning/value system/point of view to evaluate two OBVIOUSLY different issues. How does the right to choose what you do with your body have anything what so ever to do with the right to choose what you do with your body....

All joking aside, drinking/driving issues create a realistic safety risk to others that makes the 'right to choose' issue a little less significant to me than the 'public welfare' issue. Now some will say that the same reasoning could be said about abortion, so they might say that my POV on that is 'inconsistent'.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Why do liberals get the tag for helmut laws. Wasn't it the Reagan administration that jammed the 55 mph speed limit down our throats?

Actually, the 55 mph speed limit was originated by the Carter Administration during the oil crisis, in order to save fuel.

 

[loki09789]

Actually, the 55 mph speed limit was originated by the Carter Administration during the oil crisis, in order to save fuel.

One of the other motives (though I have to agree that the driving motive was probably consumption) of the reduced speeds was the safety issues as well. Now-a-days when people mention the speed limits, they back it up with the survivability statistics/occurance type of datum bits.

If that was the case then, I wonder if the re-introduction of 65 will be reduced back to 55 in response to the near/over $2 gallon prices (at least in this area)...

If they don't reduce the speed, would that be a conspiracy to rake the public by the administration?....

 

[psi_radar]

Why do liberals get the tag for helmut laws. Wasn't it the Reagan administration that jammed the 55 mph speed limit down our throats?
We have these laws because of human nature. If we make people legislators, they will legislate. They just can't help themselves.

That was during the Carter administration and the last gas crisis in the mid 70's. Ralph Nader had a hand in it too, I believe.

I hear you about the legislature. To justify their existence, they need to constantly create new laws. By its very nature, it begins to limit our freedoms.

Ok, I've beat my participation on this thread to death. To all you motorcyclists: please wear your helmets.

 

[Nightingale]

MT MOD NOTE:

Please keep the discussion on topic. The topic is "Helmet laws" and how someone can be pro-choice yet support helmet laws. General political sniping is not topical. If someone wishes to debate general liberal v. conservative philosophy, feel free to start a new thread.

Thank you.

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR

 

[Spud]

Ever hear of Social Security Disability?

Funny thing, but once you bash your brains in, you end up becoming destitute real fast. Especially if you're a single adult. Or one of the 45 million people without health insurance.

And we're not talking about "the government." We're talking about our tax money.

WORD!

I've a friend who provides counseling for people on Medicaid and Social Security Disablity - a sizeable number are in those programs because of Traumatic Brain Injury and of those - the young motorcyclists are well represented.

 

[loki09789]

Ever hear of Social Security Disability?

Funny thing, but once you bash your brains in, you end up becoming destitute real fast. Especially if you're a single adult. Or one of the 45 million people without health insurance.

And we're not talking about "the government." We're talking about our tax money.

In a very cruel and emotionless view, that could also be the practicallity of abortion. Abort a child that will be unwanted/less that well provided for and will become a 'drain on society' because of all the problems that are assumed to come with those conditions (sub standard living conditions, drug abuse, illegal activies, gang recruitment.....). Those who would use this reasoning probably cite the percentage of teen and single pregnant women (maybe even going so far as to target minorities even more specifically) who seek abortions and then do the 'what if she kept it' prospectus by comparing the results of crime/youth offenses/academic underachievement of children from women who chose to keep the child.

Sort of a harsh way to look at it, but someone out there is reasoning out things this way....

 

[michaeledward]

. . . Abort a child . . .

Child? That is language of pro-life.
The correct language is fetus. You know that.

 

[loki09789]

Child? That is language of pro-life.
The correct language is fetus. You know that.

Well, my personal bent on this sticks out.... BUT,as an American, beyond voting my conscience, I don't have the right or power to tell another citizen how to live his life. If I were so crazy as to seek an office, things might be different.

Getting to the "gains in inches" strategy aren't you .

 

[whalen]

*
Directory of information:
*
1) Conflict of interest: Cheney continues to receive income from Halliburton
2) Cheney’s involvement in awarding no-bid contract to Halliburton
3) Iraq contracts: Criminal investigations and rampant waste, fraud and abuse
4) Doing business with “Axis of Evil” countries like Iran
5) Halliburton’s sales to Saddam Hussein under Cheney
6) Halliburton paid bribes during Cheney's reign, say investigators
7) Halliburton and ‘frivolous’ lawsuits
8) Leaving workers and retirees behind
9) Accounting fraud
10) Corporate welfare
11) Asbestos liability: Cheney’s legacy
12) Donald Rumsfeld

*
1) Conflict of interest: Cheney continues to receive income from Halliburton
*
In 2003, Cheney said “I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind.” But he continues to receive a income of over $150,000 from Halliburton each year and holds 433,333 shares of unexercised stock options in the company. Congressman Henry Waxman (D-CA) of the House Government Reform Committee has asked Cheney to provide further information.

2) Cheney’s involvement in awarding no-bid contract to Halliburton
*
Cheney told NBC's Meet the Press "I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts led by the [Army] Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the Federal Government." But an internal Pentagon email contradicts Cheney's denial, explaining that months before the war "action" on the Iraqi oil contract was "coordinated" with Cheney's office.*

3) Iraq contracts: Criminal investigations and rampant waste, fraud and abuse
*
As the recipient of contracts worth an estimated $18 billion, Halliburton is the biggest war profiteer in the Iraq reconstruction debacle and the Army’s number one contractor.
*
a) The Department of Justice is conducting a criminal investigation into allegations that Halliburton gouged the taxpayers for $61 million for gasoline; a separate criminal investigation is ongoing into charges that two employees took kickbacks from a subcontractor.
*
b) The Pentagon's Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) completed a comprehensive review of Halliburton's system for billing the government for meals served to the troops in the Middle East. The DCAA said Halliburton billed the government for 36 percent more meals than was actually served to the troops while an internal KBR report said it had overcharged by 19 percent. In May 2004, the DCAA recommended that the Pentagon refuse to pay Halliburton for the overcharges.
*
c) A number of ex-employees have returned and blown the whistle on all kinds of waste, fraud and abuse, including charges of $45 per case of soda, $100 per 15-pound bag of laundry, the ditching of $85,000 trucks because of flat tires and other minor repair problems and the use of five-star hotels in Kuwait while the troops are sweating it out in tents in the desert.
*
d) In August the Pentagon’s auditors and Halliburton could not justify $1.8 billion of $4.3 billion (or 43 percent) in bills submitted by the company under one contract. Although at least 25 separate criminal investigations into various reconstruction contractors are underway, the Bush administration has yet to suspend or debar a single contractor in Iraq – not even the companies involved in the Abu Ghraib prison torture. A bipartisan coalition of Senators called for the creation of a special committee modeled on the WWII Truman Committee to investigate these and other problems. Both candidates should be asked if they support the creation of such a committee and the suspension of any company under criminal investigation from new contracts until the investigations are concluded (the way, for example, Enron and WorldCom were suspended from government contracts even before being convicted of fraud). **
*
e) Halliburton is under investigation by the Justice Department for possible over billing on government services work done in the Balkans from 1996 through 2000, i.e., the period when Cheney was CEO.* The GAO found inflated costs, including charges for cleaning some offices up to four times a day.* Based on an internal investigation, Halliburton credited the government approximately $2 million during 2000 and 2001 related to its work in the Balkans as a result of unsupported billings. **
*
f) The Los Angeles Times reported that "the Army recently renegotiated a contract that Halliburton had with a Kuwaiti company to provide meals. By contracting directly with the Kuwaiti company instead of going through Halliburton, the Army knocked 40 percent off the cost of the contract." Once the Pentagon dealt directly with the Kuwaiti-owned company, known as Timimi Co., the cost per-meal dropped from about $5 to about $3, according to GAO Comptroller David Walker. (Los Angeles Times, June 16, 2004, p. A12).
*
g) Last December, amid allegations of overcharging, the Pentagon fired Halliburton from its gasoline importation contract and assigned it to an office within the Pentagon known as the Defense Energy Support Center (DESC). The result was a 50 percent reduction in gasoline prices charged to U.S. taxpayers. *
*
4) Doing business with “Axis of Evil” countries like Iran

Cheney has said the U.S. will hunt terrorists “wherever they plot and plan." But as CEO for Halliburton he called for ending sanctions against Iran, a nation whose government President Bush says sponsors terrorism and described as part of an “axis of evil.” Halliburton’s sales to Iran totaled $63 million in 2003, and were conducted through the use of shell corporations in the Cayman Islands (a situation being investigated by a grand jury in Houston).
*
5) Halliburton’s sales to Saddam Hussein under Cheney
*
In 2000, Cheney claimed Halliburton had no business deals with Saddam Hussein during his time as CEO. But he misled America since Halliburton did indeed profit from Saddam Hussein's dictatorship when Cheney was with the company. Halliburton subsidiaries -- Dresser Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump -- signed contracts to sell more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq from the first half of 1997 through the summer of 2000 -- while Cheney was chairman and CEO of the company. Did Cheney deliberately mislead America or was he ignorant of the facts while employed as CEO?
*
6) Halliburton paid bribes during Cheney's reign, say investigators
*
A scheme to bribe the government of Nigeria – hatched before Cheney arrived -- continued when he was CEO, when a lawyer who allegedly masterminded the use of Swiss bank accounts was rehired over objections from other partners involved in a large liquid natural gas (LNG) project. Cheney also hired Albert “Jack” Stanley -- a top KBR executive who was fired this year after $5 million was found in his Swiss bank account in association with the scheme. Cheney and his lawyers have refused comment. Bribing foreign governments is a criminal offense under the U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
*
7) Halliburton and ‘frivolous’ lawsuits
*
Cheney says the court system is filled with too many lawsuits. But during his 5-year tenure as CEO, Halliburton was more than willing to file its own lawsuits in America’s courts. The company was involved in 151 court claims filed in 15 states around the nation. On average, Halliburton petitioned America's legal system 30 times per year while Cheney was CEO. Although Halliburton earns billions in revenues each year, it sued people or corporations in small claims court for as little as $1,500. It sued 15 debtors for less than $10,000 each, 24 debtors for less than $15,000 each and 40 debtors for less than $100,000 each. How many of these court actions contributed to what Cheney calls the “frivolous lawsuit” epidemic?*
*
8) Leaving workers and retirees behind
*
As CEO of Halliburton, Cheney masterminded a business merger that robbed $25 million from worker pensions. Nine months after plundering the company’s pensions, the board of directors, with Cheney as chairman, awarded Cheney a $20 million pension. Pension experts say Cheney’s pension-profiteering was “scandalous.”
*
9) Accounting fraud
*
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) said Halliburton provided "materially misleading" information on its accounting statements during the period when Cheney was CEO, thereby defrauding Wall Street and individual investors. Cheney signed those accounting statements as “accurate” and “honest.” The SEC agreed to settle the investigation in August after Halliburton agreed to pay a $7.5 million fine and stop "committing or causing future securities law violations." A Dallas federal judge rejected a planned $6 million settlement of a class-action lawsuit filed by Halliburton shareholders who say the company committed the same accounting fraud investigated by the SEC.* The judge said the $6 million settlement was inadequate and unreasonable for the shareholders. Four ex-Halliburton employees filed suit against the company (as shareholders) the day after the SEC settled its case with the company.* *

In 1996, Cheney appeared in a promotional video for the now disgraced accounting firm Andersen. "I get good advice, if you will, from their people, based upon how we are doing business and how we are operating, over and above the normal, by-the-books auditing arrangement," Cheney said. Andersen was convicted of obstructing justice by shredding documents relating to the failed US energy giant Enron.
**
10) Corporate welfare
*
During the 2000 debate with Senator Lieberman, in referring to the $44 million he received for five year's work at Halliburton -- Cheney said, "I tell you that the government had absolutely nothing to do with it." But it was Cheney himself who as Secretary of Defense paid Brown & Root Services, a Halliburton subsidiary, $9 million to conduct a study that led to the creation of the logistics contract (LOGCAP) that first went to KBR in 1992 and has allowed Halliburton to rise to the top of the Army’s list of contractors today. Halliburton’s LOGCAP III contract for its work in Iraq is worth up to $9.2 billion, while its oil restoration contract is worth up to $8.2 billion. Moreover, U.S. taxpayer-supported financing for Halliburton’s overseas oil projects since 1992 is valued at more than $7.8 billion. No corporation has benefited more from the World Bank's fossil fuel extractive project than Halliburton. Since 1992, the U.S.-taxpayer financed World Bank approved more than $2.5 billion in financing for 13 Halliburton projects.

11) Asbestos liability: Cheney’s legacy
*
Cheney’s tenure as CEO for Halliburton is erroneously reported by the mainstream media as a “success.” In fact, his incompetence and lack of business experience are the reason why Halliburton failed to earn a profit over the last two years despite skyrocketing revenues from Iraq war contracts. While CEO, Cheney orchestrated the $7.7 billion merger of Halliburton with Dresser Industries, a move that eventually saddled Halliburton with Dresser’s $4 billion in legal claims filed by people who were injured by asbestos. Those legal claims are the reason why Halliburton has been mired in red ink for the last two years.*
*
12) Donald Rumsfeld
*
In 1966, Donald H. Rumsfeld, then a Republican member of the House of Representatives from Illinois, demanded to know about the 30-year association between Halliburton’s chairman and then-president Lyndon B. Johnson. “Why this huge contract has not been and is not now being adequately audited is beyond me,” Rumsfeld said. “The potential for waste and profiteering under such a contract is substantial.” (National Public Radio, All Things Considered, Dec. 24, 2003.)
*
More in-depth information about Halliburton can be found using the HalliburtonWatch search engine by clicking here. artyon:

 

[loki09789]

*

*
More in-depth information about Halliburton can be found using the HalliburtonWatch search engine by clicking here. artyon:

Looks like it needs its own thread to me.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Or maybe the word liberal is too often demonized. In truth, I do believe the party of Lincoln were at one point the big liberals. And all of the good liberal things (like freeing slaves, women's voting rights, integration in the school house, etc...) that have happened in our country, I just can't understand why "liberal" is such a bad word.

I cannot and willnot speak for the south, but the schools in Boston were never segregated or imbalanced, too many eye-witnesses and countervailing evidence for that; yet the liberals, most of whom where not even from Boston (example, book: DEATH AT AN EARLY AGE) came in as interlopers and psuedo-experts, screamed RAACISM at the top of their lungs thereby creating a 'self-fulfiling prophecy' and were believed by the liberal Boston newspaper (again, most of who worked for Boston newspapers not being from Boston) and the leftist Kennedy stooge federal judge went ahead violating the Seperation of Powers act and ordered a collectivist solution, 'Forced Busing', to a non-existant problem - in Boston if segregation didn't exist, create it in myth!

All this by liberals who were going to force you to comply with their Utopian left-wing fantasy at your tax expense: liberals are the true practitioners of Orwellian logic: We the liberals are the first among equals!

Trouble is, Boston really isn't that liberal, its all the surrounding cities and towns like Cambridge, Newton, Brookline and various suburbs, Boston itself is conservative to moderate. But all the liberals scream their heads off and make the most noise, they insist they are right and have all the answers (from the safety of their private sector jobs and their all-white affluent suburbs).

So this is why 'liberal' is such invective.

 

[whalen]

Looks like it needs its own thread to me.

Yo

You might be right on this.

Hal whalen artyon:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Trouble is, Boston really isn't that liberal, its all the surrounding cities and towns like Cambridge, Newton, Brookline and various suburbs, Boston itself is conservative to moderate. But all the liberals scream their heads off and make the most noise, they insist they are right and have all the answers (from the safety of their private sector jobs and their all-white affluent suburbs).

So this is why 'liberal' is such invective.

So you are for urban dwellers and against surburbanites?

 

[Nightingale]

MT MOD NOTE:

This thread is locked pending admin review due to the inability of posters to remain on topic.

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR