Punches in WTF TKD

[SPX]

Just a quick question here, as I really don't know.

I am of the understanding that in the past it was rare for judges to actually score punches in WTF TKD. I can at least say that I very rarely see punches in the videos that I've watched.

Now that the electronic hogu has been introduced, is this changing? After all, the hogu doesn't lie. Or are the hogus tuned in such a way that punches are still not hard enough to register?

 

[Cyriacus]

The thing is, even if they score, they wont score *as much*. Theyre quite common in WTF Sparring, but mostly as pace keepers between Kicking, or Defense. All this will do is affect how often they potentially score, not how often theyre used.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just a quick question here, as I really don't know.

I am of the understanding that in the past it was rare for judges to actually score punches in WTF TKD. I can at least say that I very rarely see punches in the videos that I've watched.

Now that the electronic hogu has been introduced, is this changing? After all, the hogu doesn't lie. Or are the hogus tuned in such a way that punches are still not hard enough to register?

good question. I really dont know as I havent seen enough fights. From what you've seen, how often do they score? For instance, in the average bout, how many punches would get scored?

 

[StudentCarl]

I see punches scoring more in matches with electronic hogus. The electronic scoring system does not include sensors on the hands, so it is not involved except by changing the role of judges. The corner judges still score head contact, turning points, and punches. The theory I've been told is that judges want to score, not just watch. Since they don't score regular kicks, they are more watchful for the above. Good punches score more now than when judges had to score both punches and regular kicks to the hogu...I suspect because a good punch still only hits like a modest kick and the mental comparison of force by judges led to ignoring punches more. Just my opinion.

Carl

 

[StudentCarl]

good question. I really dont know as I havent seen enough fights. From what you've seen, how often do they score? For instance, in the average bout, how many punches would get scored?

How often and average don't tell much because they overlook the relevant detail. They score when they're solid, forceful impacts observed cleanly by two judges. I don't think there is an 'average' bout, as styles differ. If an athlete leaves him/herself open to punches and the opponent knows how to get there and deliver, the points stack up. I've watched video of national and world matches decided by punches where the puncher came from behind. If athletes have effective punch defense or the puncher doesn't clearly and forcefully hit the hogu in view of two judges, they don't score more or less than anything else. I think most people can identify a solid punch that should score, but it's easy to overlook that judges are limited to what they can see.

 

[SPX]

The thing is, even if they score, they wont score *as much*.

Aren't they supposed to be a point for each punch scored, just like a kick?

 

[SPX]

good question. I really dont know as I havent seen enough fights. From what you've seen, how often do they score? For instance, in the average bout, how many punches would get scored?

Most of the matches that I've seen the fighters don't even bother to throw punches. And unfortunately in the few that I have there was no visible scoreboard, so I couldn't tell when they were being scored and when they weren't.

 

[SPX]

I see punches scoring more in matches with electronic hogus. The electronic scoring system does not include sensors on the hands, so it is not involved except by changing the role of judges.

Hmm, I guess I don't really understand how the electronic hogu works. I thought it was wired in a way to detect an impact in the appropriate scoring areas, and that as long as it was impacted with enough force then it would register a point. So it wouldn't matter if it was a punch or kick, the point would register.

Can you explain to me how it works?

 

[SPX]

How often and average don't tell much because they overlook the relevant detail. They score when they're solid, forceful impacts observed cleanly by two judges.

That's easy to say, but I have heard that on the parts of many judges there is a explicit intent to not score punches because TKD is supposed to be about kicks. I've heard this many, many times.

 

[ETinCYQX]

It's not true, at least in my (admittedly only Canadian East Coast) experience. My last match I won 7-2 and the only points my opponent scored were two solid punches that caught me as I came in, his lead leg roundhouse kicks and sidekicks didn't score. He was much taller than me but didn't use his range well which was what led me to be fighting outside in the first place.

 

[StudentCarl]

Hmm, I guess I don't really understand how the electronic hogu works. I thought it was wired in a way to detect an impact in the appropriate scoring areas, and that as long as it was impacted with enough force then it would register a point. So it wouldn't matter if it was a punch or kick, the point would register.

Can you explain to me how it works?

Sensors on feet and sensors on hogu. Essentially, they have to meet and above a minimum amount of force. Only feet get sensors; none for hands as yet and none for helmet. So judges have to score punches and head shots manually. Likewise, sensors can't tell if you spun before kicking, so turning kick point is added by judges.

 

[StudentCarl]

That's easy to say, but I have heard that on the parts of many judges there is a explicit intent to not score punches because TKD is supposed to be about kicks. I've heard this many, many times.

You dismiss what I say as "easy to say", then counter with "I have heard"??? Who have you heard this from who is credible? Which judges and when? What's your first hand experience with USAT or WTF sanctioned tournaments? What I explained is based on personal observation and conversations with numerous referees, some of whom are senior national level with long experience, as well as coaches. Is this the organization in which you compete, or is this just word of mouth? I think we've got a lot of misinformation that goes on when people hear about other Taekwondo organizations...causes a lot of confusion and friction on this board. Your profile says your art is judo.

 

[puunui]

That's easy to say, but I have heard that on the parts of many judges there is a explicit intent to not score punches because TKD is supposed to be about kicks. I've heard this many, many times.

That's isn't really correct. You can score punches. One of my students won nationals one year and scored four points with punches, which was some kind of record at the time. He was dropping people with his punches. There is another competitor from Hawaii does the same thing today, dropping or folding people with his punches.

Having said that, if I were in charge, I would eliminate scoring by punches and make it into a strictly kicking game. Boxing is punches only and no one is there arguing you have to include kicks, sweeps or take downs, joint locks, throws, chokes, arm bars or what have you. Leave punching to boxing and kicking to taekwondo. Kicking is taekwondo's unique characteristic and I do not believe we should dilute that with punches. If someone wants to punch in a tournament, then let them take up boxing or MMA. But that is just my opinion.

 

[MAist25]

That's isn't really correct. You can score punches. One of my students won nationals one year and scored four points with punches, which was some kind of record at the time. He was dropping people with his punches. There is another competitor from Hawaii does the same thing today, dropping or folding people with his punches.

Having said that, if I were in charge, I would eliminate scoring by punches and make it into a strictly kicking game. Boxing is punches only and no one is there arguing you have to include kicks, sweeps or take downs, joint locks, throws, chokes, arm bars or what have you. Leave punching to boxing and kicking to taekwondo. Kicking is taekwondo's unique characteristic and I do not believe we should dilute that with punches. If someone wants to punch in a tournament, then let them take up boxing or MMA. But that is just my opinion.

Yea but that is because boxing doesnt have kicking in its skillset; taekwondo does. Taekwondo is the way of kicking and punching and hand techniques should not be taken out of competition in my opinion. If fact, I think they should be scored more than they currently are. You may not have as many spectacular kicks in competition as frequently but more punches would make for better overall fighters.

 

[SPX]

You dismiss what I say as "easy to say", then counter with "I have heard"???

I'm not an expert, but the people I've heard this from are people who have competed in these tournaments. I can't the number of times that people have said, "I'd throw more punches if they would score, but the judges never score them." Many times it's insinuated that there is a bias against punches because the WTF wants to maintain TKD's kicking focus.

This isn't to say that your statement was incorrect . . . but rather that there seems to be more to the story. You can't ignore the testimony from many, many TKD competitors who say they have thrown hard punches in plain view that just go unrewarded.

 

[SPX]

Yea but that is because boxing doesnt have kicking in its skillset; taekwondo does. Taekwondo is the way of kicking and punching and hand techniques should not be taken out of competition in my opinion. If fact, I think they should be scored more than they currently are. You may not have as many spectacular kicks in competition as frequently but more punches would make for better overall fighters.

Co-Signed.

Why have competitions that sanction the use of only a fraction of the art's skillset? Can you imagine a karate tournament where only lunging punches are allowed?

 

[SPX]

That's isn't really correct. You can score punches. One of my students won nationals one year and scored four points with punches, which was some kind of record at the time. He was dropping people with his punches. There is another competitor from Hawaii does the same thing today, dropping or folding people with his punches.

Should you really have to take a person off their feet for a punch to score, though? Isn't that something of an unrealistic standard? I would think that the punch should only have to be hard enough to hurt a person if they weren't wearing a hogu.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Co-Signed.

Why have competitions that sanction the use of only a fraction of the art's skillset? Can you imagine a karate tournament where only lunging punches are allowed?

I couldnt agree more. Tkdists constantly have to defend the fact that we dont just kick, it is a complete art. Then we get people suggesting we take one part of the entire system and make that the only way to score. People train for the ring, the same reason mma fighters dont learn to defend an attack by a baseball bat because it aint gonna happen during a match. I can see it now, tkd stops scoring punches and you get athletes from tkd who only train kicks. Not scoring punches would have to be the stupidest idea Ive heard yet.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'm not an expert, but the people I've heard this from are people who have competed in these tournaments. I can't the number of times that people have said, "I'd throw more punches if they would score, but the judges never score them." Many times it's insinuated that there is a bias against punches because the WTF wants to maintain TKD's kicking focus.

This isn't to say that your statement was incorrect . . . but rather that there seems to be more to the story. You can't ignore the testimony from many, many TKD competitors who say they have thrown hard punches in plain view that just go unrewarded.

I don't think it's as conspiratorial as a master agenda from the WTF. I've had punches not score that I thought should have, but everybody I know who has said that also says it about kicks---I've had lots of those not score when they should have too. Now that I've sat as a corner judge some and seen how tough the job is, I agree with what my master teaches: you have to do 3 things to score--1) hit with shocking power and on-target; 2) be in a position and angle in the ring that at least 2 judges have a clear view of the strike; and 3) sell the point (carry self with confidence, kiap, celebrate the point, have hit earlier with power so judges give you any benefit of the doubt [judges are human]). Kicks hit harder than punches and are harder to get on target, both of which are good reasons to give more credence to kicking than punching.

Lots of kicks don't score when they should either, and leg movement is easier to see than arm movement--because arms are easier to hide behind the trunk. Having judged a little, good judges don't score based on sound or guess; they score what they see as a clean point.

I do think legitimate punches are scoring more now than in the past, so I think the balance is improving for scoring of good punches. However, I don't want punches to score easily. If they did, then you'd see more of the garbage we see occasionally at open tournaments: a (usually chunky 30+ yr old) guy (seems like always with a beard) will show up and wear TKD gear except you'll see him strap on his MMA or bag gloves. When the match starts he throws a low-n-slow front kick as an entry and then bulls forward throwing punches until he shoves you out of the ring or you cut around him and kick him. I loved fighting those guys as a colored belt, but it's ugly and lacks skill except as movement practice. There's a reason you don't see that in black belt rings.

Carl

 

[Twin Fist]

Having said that, if I were in charge, I would eliminate scoring by punches and make it into a strictly kicking game. Boxing is punches only and no one is there arguing you have to include kicks, sweeps or take downs, joint locks, throws, chokes, arm bars or what have you. Leave punching to boxing and kicking to taekwondo. Kicking is taekwondo's unique characteristic and I do not believe we should dilute that with punches. If someone wants to punch in a tournament, then let them take up boxing or MMA. But that is just my opinion.

i cant say anything that wont get me a Ban hammer. I am literally sitting here thinking that i want to give my belt back. If i was one of your students, i would.

i feel ill