What does your organization offer you?

[Kong Soo Do]

Troublenuff asked a very good question;

I think that an added question would be: What direct benefit do you recieve from the Kukkowon other than certification?

And Master Rush suggested a new thread. So here it is

I've expanded the question just a bit to include any/all organizations.

What does your organization do directly for you?

 

[dancingalone]

The primary reason to belong to any organization IMO is to have access to train with and learn from great martial artists. This is not to say that it is not impossible to gain the same access if you're not a member of such a group. Far from it actually. But in theory, being a member should make it EASIER for you to gain those opportunities.

This is the reason why I choose to be a member of the United States Aikido Federation. I have direct access to and I grade under some of the foremost shihan in the United States and I have a link back to the Hombu in Japan if I so wish for further learning. The certification is an added benefit in my opinion, but not the primary one by any means. It's the contacts that are more important.

I imagine any TKD organization worth its salt would accord the same benefits. People, not paper.

Needless to say, this probably matters only to dan level students and honestly those who are well past the newly minted stage. Shodans, even nidans, and below receive primary instruction from their dojo/dojang heads, and the issue of certification/organizational membership is largely irrelevant most of the time.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The orgs I belong (ed) to offer:

1. The best knowledge resources with regard to technical consistency for that system.

2. There were also instances of offering ways to teach things.

3. Access to competitions with a known consistency with regard to competitions for both competitors and judging.

4. A "home" for my students who travel elsewhere and those from elsewhere coming to my area. People fit in easily.

There was still plenty fo great stuff to find outside the org / system if you were so inclined.

 

[sopraisso]

This is interesting.
Although I'm still in kyu belt level, I already think concretely about when I reach dan rank, so this is sounds important to me. I've seen the benefits, appart from the certification, numbered by dancingalone and Earl Weiss but I don't seem to understand some of them very well.

• Staying in contact with great martial artists. Is this reffering to: 1) martial artists directly related to the organization; or 2) simply other affiliated members with more experience and knowledge?

I don't believe there are in Brazil any people fitting the first case. Last year some Kukkiwon representatives came from South Korea and gave a seminar. Everyone was crazy about it, because it basicaly never happens. Anyway, the seminar would be (and was) very short and people had to pay and buy plane tickets (to travel to the city where it would happen) much before the scheduled date. But Kukkiwon would only show up if a certain minimum people payed to join. I imagine how bad it would be if there wasn't this minimum people: even if who payed had their money back, they would have to deal with the losses from canceling plane tickets.
Here in Brazil if someone wants to have some kind of instruction with Kukkiwon, they have to travel abroad. Anyone knows if this is a specific case of my country (and other countries, surely) or is it a general rule? Or, instead, staying in contact with great martial artists basically means we're in their club, so other affiliated martial artists from our own place will recognize us as colleagues so they'll more likely welcome us to exchange informations and experiences? While the second case seems more likely (at least in Brazil), honestly it doesn't sound something so great the organization does for us. Actually, it would be ourselves who do it instead of the organizations. Anyway, maybe this is a particular reality of my country or even I don't have the needed knowledge on the subject, because I'm not professionally committed to the martial arts/taekwondo scene. By the way, it's worth mentioning, anyway, that Aikikai does have a representative dojo in Brazil, so in the Aikido case I would feel more confident with the help of the organization.

• Best knowledge resources with regard to technical consistency for the system. Does this refer specificaly to books and other official publications? Because, if it's the case, it also doesn't sound like a benefit of becoming affiliated to the organization, because I could buy, for example, the Kukkiwon Textbook even if I were not affiliated to it. Wouldn't I be allowed to participate on a seminar made for them, too? Maybe the point is I have a benefit from the starting point I adopt the system from the particular organization, because I'll have the mentioned consistency in all the material from the specif system adopted. It sounds good, but not like something the organization does for the members, more than for itself and like an obvious and inherent function of the organization itself (it would need to have their own official material and standards). Anyway, I don't think I need to become affiliated to adopt integrally the system from any organization (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I ask about these two aspects specifically because they're closer to what I'm concerned regarding to my personal martial arts journey.
I'm not trying to attack or deny the importance of the organizations -- I do believe in their importance. But I would like to know better about what Kong Soo Do asked. So: what does our organizations do directly for us? Maybe thinking of it in a less abstract way would help to clear this up.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I really dont think orgs offer much at all, ours included. But I suppose one thing I like is knowing that every single black belt I come accross where I train underwent the exact same requirements as me to get their black belt, and every other belt. The same GM grades every student and sets one curriculum for every single student, and putts practices in place to ensure that every single class teaches the same things in the same way. I meet other tkdists from my club at club events, seminars, camps etc who I have never seen in my life, yet they are following an identical curriculum taught the same way, so I can ask for advice from literally thousands of black belts who are all on the same page.

 

[MAist25]

For Taekwondo I belong to Kukkiwon and the United States Taekwondo Association under GM Richard Chun. I love belonging to Dr. Chun's association because he is a Taekwondo legend and I love how he chose to keep his Taekwondo very traditional, continuing to pass on the Moo Duk Kwan traditions. Kukkiwon is great to have because it allowed me to transfer schools when I went away to college. I got to continue with my training as a Dan rank, no questions asked because of my Kukkiwon credentials.

 

[StudentCarl]

Michigan Sport Taekwondo, Michigan's state organization, offers training sessions and qualifying tournaments for US Nationals in Kukki Taekwondo. I know and continue to meet good people through this organization.

USAT offers a target for frequent bashing. I have benefitted from coaching seminars and training sessions with national level coaches. I hang around in hopes leadership will improve. They have at least dumped LaJust.

Kukkiwon offers me internationally accepted rank certification and the satisfaction that I'm part of a branch of the martial art that continues to evolve based on research and testing under the lens of competition. The evolution in technique compared to what I learned 32 years ago is revealing: no more spin side kicks, no more wheel kicks, much better developed footwork, better safety gear, and likely other things I haven't learned yet or take for granted. The popularity of Kukki TKD means that tournaments are available regularly, giving me the opportunity to benefit from a great community of other athletes and coaches. No, Kukkiwon doesn't schedule tournaments in Michigan, but their governance is our overarching unity.

Carl

 

[puunui]

The primary reason to belong to any organization IMO is to have access to train with and learn from great martial artists. This is not to say that it is not impossible to gain the same access if you're not a member of such a group. Far from it actually. But in theory, being a member should make it EASIER for you to gain those opportunities.

Great answer. I would also add that you get to help those who are seeking to be great martial artists. If it weren't for the Kukkiwon, USTU, and WTF, I wouldn't have been able to have the kinds of relationships that I enjoy, with people all over the world. I also think that it is better to be inside enjoying everyone's company than on the outside trying to throw rocks through the windows.

This is the reason why I choose to be a member of the United States Aikido Federation. I have direct access to and I grade under some of the foremost shihan in the United States and I have a link back to the Hombu in Japan if I so wish for further learning. The certification is an added benefit in my opinion, but not the primary one by any means. It's the contacts that are more important.

Exactly.

I imagine any TKD organization worth its salt would accord the same benefits. People, not paper.

Right. It's all about relationships.

Needless to say, this probably matters only to dan level students and honestly those who are well past the newly minted stage. Shodans, even nidans, and below receive primary instruction from their dojo/dojang heads, and the issue of certification/organizational membership is largely irrelevant most of the time.

Right, it becomes more important for those shooting for level 2 and 3, not so much for those whose main focus is (and should be) level 1 stuff.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Being a member of our organization offers me two things.

1) It means my rank is personally recognized by one of our Soke's 1st-generation students. If I ever find myself having to move and find a new place to train, there will be no question as to my credentials.

2) It makes me part of a very small team and family. Makes me feel good.

3) I got a patch for my gi.

However, our association is not like most, I'm told. Ours is $25 per year, and it's purely voluntary. No one has to join to get promoted, no one has to join at all. It's not a money-making machine or a profit center; it's just a group of guys that teach Isshin-Ryu the same way under the same Sensei at the top.

I never used to understand all the hate around associations, but then I found out that most are not like mine; I get it now. I'm just glad we're not into that kind of drama.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I belong to the International Kong Soo Do Association. The Association is a collection of schools here in the U.S. and Australia with the focus on the self-defense aspects of the martial arts. I like being a part of an organization of like-minded individuals so that this aspect can be discussed, researched and shared. In particular I like;

• The annual seminar that we host. It is free and open to all members of the martial arts. It focuses specifically on self-defense application. This year (March 31/April 1 in TN.) the focus is on Bunkai/Ho Shin Sul applications in the IKSDA basic 20 and the Mu Shin kata. It will also include in-depth teaching on topics currently used successfully in high liabilty professions such as edged weapon defense, flinch response etc. It is provided free to be able to meet with and share with other martial instructors and practitioners.
• A mutually agreed upon structure of guidelines for promotions, curriculum, methods etc.
• The ability to provide assistance to those seeking a venue that is indepentent of the KMA's organizations that focus on sport applications. We provide, usually for free, testing in various arts such as TKD and HKD as well as those wishing to adopt the KSD label and adopt our structure.
• An organization that isn't about the $. Although we have $50 as the membership fee (one time), we haven't yet charged anyone anything. We could be, and people have been willing to pay for membership, we just never get around to requiring it. Our bottom line is we just want to help our fellow instructor/practitioner if we are able. I don't believe we've ever charged for a promotion either.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

There have been some great posts here!

I've never looked at it like an association, but technically speaking I belong to Kang's Taekwondo Association. No fees for anything outside of promotion tests, we are schools under the instruction of our Kwan Jang Nim. I could go completely independent, but here is what belonging to the association provides me:

• Access to training with excellent martial artists from other Je Kwans and the Bon Kwan.
• A path for certification
• Following the loyalty and tradition that my instructors and I went up through the ranks with.

We also belong to the United States Taekwondo Won. Personally, I see it as less of an association and more of a movement for the preservation of the early styles of Taekwondo in the United States. I know this goes against the grain of the KKW and possibly the vision of the TKD Pioneers, but it is what I know and love. No governance of curriculum, as we all come from various styles/kwans. It is a charitable (Federal 501-C) organization that provides a path of certification as well as a chance to train and interact with like minded traditionalists. For those Kroeans that came to the U.S. back in the 60's and 70's that did not adopt the changes as TKD in Korea evolved, many of their students lost the camaraderie and benefits of having an association of like minded martial artists after their Kwan Jang Nims passed away or retired. This is where the USTW fills the gap.

 

[puunui]

We also belong to the United States Taekwondo Won. Personally, I see it as less of an association and more of a movement for the preservation of the early styles of Taekwondo in the United States. I know this goes against the grain of the KKW and possibly the vision of the TKD Pioneers, but it is what I know and love. No governance of curriculum, as we all come from various styles/kwans. It is a charitable (Federal 501-C) organization that provides a path of certification as well as a chance to train and interact with like minded traditionalists. For those Kroeans that came to the U.S. back in the 60's and 70's that did not adopt the changes as TKD in Korea evolved, many of their students lost the camaraderie and benefits of having an association of like minded martial artists after their Kwan Jang Nims passed away or retired. This is where the USTW fills the gap.

What happens when the USTW dies, if it hasn't died already? What will you do then? And the funny thing is that most of the seniors that founded the Taekwondo Won did convert over to Kukkiwon poomsae. GM Ahn for example, converted and taught the taeguek poomsae in his school. I am surprised that GM Kang chose not to follow his best friend and do the same thing. Have you ever spoken to GM Kang and asked him why he chose to keep the older forms and not adopt the new forms? Was it because ustu competition was deemphasized in your dojangs?

 

[puunui]

Access to training with excellent martial artists from other Je Kwans and the Bon Kwan.

Small point, but I think it is Ji kwan not je kwan. Ji kwan is like a branch, and bon kwan is the headquarters.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What happens when the USTW dies, if it hasn't died already? What will you do then? And the funny thing is that most of the seniors that founded the Taekwondo Won did convert over to Kukkiwon poomsae. GM Ahn for example, converted and taught the taeguek poomsae in his school. I am surprised that GM Kang chose not to follow his best friend and do the same thing. Have you ever spoken to GM Kang and asked him why he chose to keep the older forms and not adopt the new forms? Was it because ustu competition was deemphasized in your dojangs?

While I should be prepared for my organization/association to "die," my loyalty and passion for my art is better placed on preserving and growing the association rather than focusing on a back up plan. I may be mistaken, but I believe GM AHN was teaching the Kukkiwon Poomsae prior to the creation of the USTW. I cannot speak for any of the founders reasons for what they taught in their curricula. I have the utmost respect for GM AHN, and I would imagine that their must have been a reason for him to be a part of founding the USTW, even if he was teaching KKW Poomsae.

I have not spoken to GM KANG as to his reasoning for maintaining his curriculum. I wouldn't say that USTU competitions were necessarily de-emphasized in our schools, they just weren't stressed. Those who wished to compete, did so. Those who had no interest, did not. We had medalists from the very first Junior Olympics and competitiors/medalists participating all the way through the 2000's. I can say that we favored the older "3 point" contact sparring over the "olympic style" rule set. At the 1997 Jr. Olympics I was warned on a couple occasions for "excessive contact." However, I was sparring no harder than I had in my dojang or at other 3-point style competitions. This was disheartening for me as a competitor, especially since we sparred with no pads outside of USTU competitions, so I can't imagine I was using uncontrolled force. I am not bashing any org or rule set, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I have heard many speak about the full contact nature of Olympic style sparring, but that was not my personal experience. My student who medaled at the '97 Louisville games was also warned and had points deducted for excessive contact, so it wasn't an isolated incident. Again, not attacking the rules or style, it just wasn't a pleasant experience for me, personally.

This is what I remember seeing growing up (minus the takedowns, since the video is more about Karate), I.J. KIM's North American Championships, K.W. KIM's Eagle Classic, S.H. KIM's tournament, AHN's Classic, KANG's U.S. Open, Choi's Battle of Columbus, etc.. . all offered a similar type of competition.

This was similar to what I remember from USTU competitions. I use this video, because it has Greg Baker (student of J.P. Choi's). Greg competed at both styles of competitions, and he excelled at both of them.

These two types of competition are different, not better or worse, just different. Personally, I prefer the 3 point style contact sparring. I do not discourage any of my students from competing at Olympic rules competitions, as I do not wish for my personal preference to taint any of my students' perceptions of these competitions. However, I don't believe we've had anyone competing since the fall of the USTU.

 

[Omar B]

I would like to throw in that I belong to no formal organization. I started in Seido, did Choi Kwang Do and Kyokushin and am back training privately with my old Seido Sensei. My last grading was when I was 17. Really, I don't care about all that organization stuff. I'm training for free with a Sensei (and his son) who I've known since I was 5. First Gen Tadashi Nakamura student FTW!

But really. In my later teens when I was in college and all my money and time went into that I couldnt do formal classes with uniforms and fees and a set schedule. But then I met the TKD instructor to the local dojang working out one morning at the park. Since then I've realized I really don't need it ... as long as I still have the Certificate for my second Dan from Seido. LOL.

My current Gi has no org patches at all. Just clean white with the American and Jamaican flags on the shoulder (my own touch).

 

[puunui]

mutually agreed upon structure of guidelines for promotions, curriculum, methods etc.

What guidelines? in my opinion it doesn't look like your organization has any guidelines for promotion, judging by Mr. Ray's webpage.

The ability to provide assistance to those seeking a venue that is indepentent of the KMA's organizations that focus on sport applications. We provide, usually for free, testing in various arts such as TKD and HKD as well as those wishing to adopt the KSD label and adopt our structure.

So your organization is called the International Kong Soo Do Association, but you provide testing in "various arts such as TKD and HKD"? How does that work? What other arts do you provide testing for besides "TKD and HKD"? But the biggest question would be why would a Kong Soo Do organization want to test anyone from a different art? I don't know any karate organization for example, that provides testing for arts like Aikido.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So your organization is called the International Kong Soo Do Association, but you provide testing in "various arts such as TKD and HKD"? How does that work?

Many of our members have rank in other arts such as TKD & HKD. If someone is in a situation where they are eligible to test for the next grade, but do not have an avenue, they can discuss the matter with an instructor in the art who is of sufficient rank to administer a test. This way requirements can be discussed, and the means to meet and do any required training can be accomplished and then a test can be administered.

But the biggest question would be why would a Kong Soo Do organization want to test anyone from a different art?

Why wouldn't we want to help another martial artist?

 

[puunui]

And who issues the certificate, the International Kong Soo Do Association? Nothing wrong with helping another martial artist, but a kong soo do organization issuing taekwondo and hapkido certification makes me raise an eyebrow, especially when the name was changed to kong soo do because the founders wanted to distance themselves from taekwondo. Why would you want to assist someone get promoted in taekwondo under those circumstances?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And who issues the certificate, the International Kong Soo Do Association?

I didn't say the certificate is issue through the IKSDA.

Nothing wrong with helping another martial artist

Something we can agree on.

especially when the name was changed to kong soo do because the founders wanted to distance themselves from taekwondo. Why would you want to assist someone get promoted in taekwondo under those circumstances?

Our decision to use the name KSD doesn't mean we are against TKD and/or HKD. That should be evident from the relationships I've developed here on MT. I'm all about helping someone in any way that I am able, if I'm able. If our group suddenly decided to go back to TKD and/or HKD then I'd be fine with that as well.

To be honest, I wanted to use 'Dave's Bait, Tackle and Kung Fu Emporium' but I got voted down. :uhyeah:

 

[puunui]

I didn't say the certificate is issue through the IKSDA.

No, you said this, in a thread entitled "What does your organization offer you?":

The ability to provide assistance to those seeking a venue that is indepentent of the KMA's organizations that focus on sport applications. We provide, usually for free, testing in various arts such as TKD and HKD as well as those wishing to adopt the KSD label and adopt our structure.

In so answering, you stated that your organization provides testing in various arts such as TKD and HKD.