Promotional authoritiy - your opinion sought

Kong Soo Do

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If an individual;
  • Is the head of a large (or even small) martial arts organization.
  • Signs Dan certificates for members promotions.
  • Charges a fee for membership and promotions.
Shouldn't they have an actual Dan ranking in the art in question (assuming the art uses the Dan system of course)? Perhaps sufficiently high to promote people? Have actual teaching experience in the art in question?

Would that be too much to ask? Or is it okay for someone that never achieved a Dan ranking to promote people to the Dan rank and even Master Dan ranking?

Your thoughts...
 
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Kong Soo Do

Kong Soo Do

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Sounds like you're referring to something specific.

Yes sir, I'm referring to something I saw in this thread; http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-after-Founder-GM-Kwang-Sik-Myung-Passed-Away

I don't know the individuals being referenced or the organization. But some of the commentary stuck me as odd and wanted to see if perhaps I'm missing something overall. I would 'think' that if an organizational head was charging for and signing off on rank certificates that they would be of sufficient rank to do so, with teaching experience as well. But I figured it would be interesting to get others views in a more frequently traveled section.
 

Chris Parker

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I just put a note on that thread regarding the sites "No Fraudbusting" policy... perhaps this topic should be discussed there, or better, in the Great Debate section if it's not a random, hypothetical, and as such about a single person and specific circumstances.
 

ralphmcpherson

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I know of a club started by a reputable 5th dan (I think, could be 6th),who had little funds and little business experience and he went partners with a guy who has little or no ranking but has lots of money and is an astute businessman. They formed a partnership where the 'business' guy runs all business operations and is technically the school owner and the 5th/6th dan runs the martial arts side of things including all training and curriculum. Their dan certs are signed by both, so technically they do have a sinature of someone with no real MA experience, but also contains a signature of a reputable martial artist.
 

Cyriacus

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I know of a club started by a reputable 5th dan (I think, could be 6th),who had little funds and little business experience and he went partners with a guy who has little or no ranking but has lots of money and is an astute businessman. They formed a partnership where the 'business' guy runs all business operations and is technically the school owner and the 5th/6th dan runs the martial arts side of things including all training and curriculum. Their dan certs are signed by both, so technically they do have a sinature of someone with no real MA experience, but also contains a signature of a reputable martial artist.
I see nothing wrong with that. The 5th Dan is doing the MA side, as You say. The Businessman signing is merely a Technicality to ensure the Legitimacy of the Document. I mean, as long as its the 5th Dan who decided to make the Document and was first to sign it, the Businessman is like the Justice of the Peace signing the Legal Document.
 

Twin Fist

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this is quite correct.

I see nothing wrong with that. The 5th Dan is doing the MA side, as You say. The Businessman signing is merely a Technicality to ensure the Legitimacy of the Document. I mean, as long as its the 5th Dan who decided to make the Document and was first to sign it, the Businessman is like the Justice of the Peace signing the Legal Document.
 

oftheherd1

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I know of a club started by a reputable 5th dan (I think, could be 6th),who had little funds and little business experience and he went partners with a guy who has little or no ranking but has lots of money and is an astute businessman. They formed a partnership where the 'business' guy runs all business operations and is technically the school owner and the 5th/6th dan runs the martial arts side of things including all training and curriculum. Their dan certs are signed by both, so technically they do have a sinature of someone with no real MA experience, but also contains a signature of a reputable martial artist.

I think the example is OK if the students are aware and OK, and if the MA signs with his dan rank, and the administrator signs as that.

But even more important is the integrity of the school itself. Is the teacher teaching what he should, and only promoting when a student is ready and passes the test? We can't know that, but the students should, and that is who it is most important to. We who are outsiders to the school, but students of the art, only have a stake from the art's point of view. We want to know if we can respect the certificate of rank. But as I said, we really can't know that unless we spend time in the school, or with students of the school. So it really is up to the students of that school.

As to the organization questioned by the thread that generated this thread, I don't know enough about it to comment.
 

tayl0124

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The better question may be, Who wants to recieve a certificate from someone with little to no experience. If that's thehing you are looking for, go ahead and send me a check for $100 and a self addressed envelope and I will send you a cert of Dan rank in any system of your choice. But in all honesty, I don't think a rank cert really means much unless it is from your peers. But even then it would only have much meaning to myself.
 

Indie12

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May also depend on the organization and ranking structure (if any) of the system itself!
 

Indie12

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The better question may be, Who wants to recieve a certificate from someone with little to no experience. If that's thehing you are looking for, go ahead and send me a check for $100 and a self addressed envelope and I will send you a cert of Dan rank in any system of your choice. But in all honesty, I don't think a rank cert really means much unless it is from your peers. But even then it would only have much meaning to myself.

You'd be surprised how many folks nowdays, do this!!!
 

kbarrett

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I personally think all rank certification should be signed by your instructor, now not all instructors are part of organiztions and they shouldn't have to be, but they should know their stuff when it comes to teaching and giving rank certification. If you look hard you may find that many of the founding Masters certifications where called into question many times, and they when on to have great organizations themselves and great impact on the martial arts world.

Ken
 

jasonbrinn

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If promotion matters at all it is usually specific to a specific group. You guys probably wouldn't care if I was a licensed Acupuncturist unless you actually needed acupuncture work done and then you would want to know that I got my certs from a respected school. Now if you really needed great work and wanted the best then you would seek to find the highest rated school among its peers within the industry and look for an acupuncturist from that place alone.

With that said - if I wanted a rank in a particular art and it was something highly specific or if the market I was trying to reach greatly considered the quality of the art they were training (not causal practitioners) then I would seek out the undisputed master in that art and start working towards the rank. This could be expensive. If my goal was to reach casual practitioners (common folk) and I really wanted to show that I had an understanding in something not that I was the end all be all then it probably wouldnt matter much.

Me personally - why worry about promotion at all if you are not going to go after the best promotions from the top people?
 

Josh Oakley

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I honestly think it would be better to just do away with the rank system for martial arts that aren't sport oriented.
 
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