Who should sign a black belt cert?

Jdokan

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What are your thoughts of groups of people who gather and see someone do a demo and then call it a test and promote or recognize them as a master? Note: The system being demo'd is form a different culture and different system.

I can see TKD style a and then being tested in TKD Style B. As the styles or organizations are the major differences.

I can see Modern Arnis Org A recognizing a person in Org B. But as a recognition does this means they have cross ranked them?

If they do promote them in their org then that is fine as well. But one could possible jump from org to org to gain rank.

A demo is a demo.....not a test.
 

Jin Gang

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Every school and organization makes up its own rules for promotion. Who should sign a certificate is up to them, it doesn't even have to make any sense. What makes sense to me, is that the most senior instructor responsible for promoting people should sign the certificates. If there is no one who is your senior in your organization, then there is no more promotion...you're the boss. If the promotion doesn't come from a teacher who is your senior, then to me it wouldn't mean anything...but this type of rank/grading stuff doesn't mean anything to me anyways.

The Japanese Dai Nippon Butotukai is an example of an organization which oversaw more than one style. While not all coming from the same style of budo, the masters on the board would recognize the achievements and skill of other martial artists, and award them with titles like renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi.

Ranks and grades aren't real, they are onnly relative to the organization that awards them. What happens is, a group of advanced students will break away from their first organization to do things their own way. They appoint one of their number as the head of the group, and give him or her a new title, and from that frame of reference begin a new rank hierarchy. So dude who was a fifth degree in Karate Org USA is now Hanshi, 10th degree of All American Karate Org, and the guys who who went with him, who used to be fourth and third degree are now eighth and seventh degree. They start out with a new set of schools and new white belts who start climbing the ranks, never the wiser. Eventually some of their students will do the same thing, after finding out that their "hanshi" only ever actually achieved 5th degree from karate org USA. Meanwhile new students continue paying for rank advancements and new belt colors and organization patches, until they too see through the illusion of "rank".

The important thing is skill, time and effort, and the ability to teach those skills and inspire others.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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What are your thoughts of groups of people who gather and see someone do a demo and then call it a test and promote or recognize them as a master? Note: The system being demo'd is form a different culture and different system.

I can see TKD style a and then being tested in TKD Style B. As the styles or organizations are the major differences.

I can see Modern Arnis Org A recognizing a person in Org B. But as a recognition does this means they have cross ranked them?

If they do promote them in their org then that is fine as well. But one could possible jump from org to org to gain rank.

Rich at the top of your post that sounds an awful lot like the Sokey Dokey boards. I think those are just wrong on oh so many levels.
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Em MacIntosh

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Though not always possible, I like the idea that it must be signed by whoever is in possetion of the menkyo kaiden, possibly his kyoshi and definitely by the shihan who graded the person. At least for shodan.
 

jks9199

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Though not always possible, I like the idea that it must be signed by whoever is in possetion of the menkyo kaiden, possibly his kyoshi and definitely by the shihan who graded the person. At least for shodan.
Which is fine for a Japanese system...

Not all systems use the same procedures.

I personally like the idea of separating skill promotion (belt levels) from instructional license/promotion. While I think that every black belt should be capable of instructing an underbelt... not all are truly interested or have the talent of teaching.
 

DavidCC

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Rich at the top of your post that sounds an awful lot like the Sokey Dokey boards. I think those are just wrong on oh so many levels.
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I'm pretty sure he is referring to the USSD Shaolin Kempo guys going to China to see the "Abbot".
 

Drac

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I personally like the idea of separating skill promotion (belt levels) from instructional license/promotion. While I think that every black belt should be capable of instructing an underbelt... not all are truly interested or have the talent of teaching.

Bravo...Well said....
 

Rich Parsons

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Rich at the top of your post that sounds an awful lot like the Sokey Dokey boards. I think those are just wrong on oh so many levels.
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I mean I have heard about some who practice multiple arts, get invited to an event and give a demonstration in their second art that is not based around the event then the seniors at said event recognize the person as a master of their second system, even if they do not ahve the rank officially.
 

Doc_Jude

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Every school and organization makes up its own rules for promotion. Who should sign a certificate is up to them, it doesn't even have to make any sense. What makes sense to me, is that the most senior instructor responsible for promoting people should sign the certificates. If there is no one who is your senior in your organization, then there is no more promotion...you're the boss. If the promotion doesn't come from a teacher who is your senior, then to me it wouldn't mean anything...

Damn, you beat me to it.

With the initial question on Speakman... there are folks that he supposedly respects highly within the EPAK community, such as Bob White I believe. Why in the world are they not granting him rank if he is so deserving of it? How can someone from another art grant you rank in an art that they don't practice? I don't care what the rationalization behind it, I'm not going to get a Doctorate in Nuclear Physics from Juilliard. Anyone that thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.
You need to submit yourself to those of greater skill and experience than you in your chosen art, or it's just an back-scratching ego game. JMO, of course.
 

Balrog

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In ATA, only certified instructors have promotional authority. Up to 2nd Degree Black Belt, there must be at least one certified instructor who is at least two ranks higher than the rank being tested for (ie, a 3rd Degree could promote up to 1st Degree, a 4th Degree up to 2nd Degree). For 3rd Degree and higher, there must be at least two certified instructors two degrees higher on the testing panel.

For 5th Degree and above, all tests must be at one of the three major testings, in front of the international Testing Committee.

All of our testing results sheets have the Grandmaster's name, plus every certified instructor on the panel (up to 5 max). The certificates for in-school testings are signed by the school's chief instructors. Certificates from national testings are signed by the Grandmaster.
 

MeatWad2

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I'm pretty sure he is referring to the USSD Shaolin Kempo guys going to China to see the "Abbot".

The "Abbot" doesn't sign the certificate though. It's signed by Charles Mattera, Steve DeMasco and the person's instructor.
 

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