Promoting seniors?

[Carol]

Occasionally on MartialTalk (and elsewhere) someone reports news of a high ranking black belt being promoted. And, sometimes the news is met with controversy over how the senior has been promoted.

In your opinion, how should a senior be promoted from, say, 7th dan to 8th dan? Or 8th dan to 9th dan? What are your ideas and thoughts?

(No flames please...just curious to see what different folks think)

 

[MJS]

Occasionally on MartialTalk (and elsewhere) someone reports news of a high ranking black belt being promoted. And, sometimes the news is met with controversy over how the senior has been promoted.

In your opinion, how should a senior be promoted from, say, 7th dan to 8th dan? Or 8th dan to 9th dan? What are your ideas and thoughts?

(No flames please...just curious to see what different folks think)

Once people reach a certain point, I don't think a physical test is or should be required. IMHO, what should be looked at is not how many pushups someone can do, but what they've done for the art. Spreading the art, conducting seminars or camps, time spent teaching, etc. are things that fall into that category.

Now, in some cases we've heard of people going in front of a board or panel of people and given their promotion. 2 things, IMO, should be taken into consideration here. 1) They should all be legit. people. 2) They should all be from the same art as the person testing. In other words, if its a Kenpoist, the panel should all be Kenpo.

Mike

 

[Grenadier]

I've seen this happen in two ways.

1) The head of the style, or at least someone who is very near him in the hierarchy, issues the promotion. If someone's being promoted to a high dan rank (7th dan or higher), then at that stage, it becomes less of what they were able to take from the style, and instead, becomes more of what they were able to give back to the style.

This method is more common, when there's a head of the style who issues such promotions.

2) A council of senior sensei gather together, and conduct the promotion. This is method usually used when there are no sensei in the system that are, say, above 8th dan, and that someone is going to assume the main leadership position.

In most cases, if the head of a style passes away, or disappears, and does not name a successor, this method can be used.

 

[Laurentkd]

Once people reach a certain point, I don't think a physical test is or should be required. IMHO, what should be looked at is not how many pushups someone can do, but what they've done for the art. Spreading the art, conducting seminars or camps, time spent teaching, etc. are things that fall into that category.

Now, in some cases we've heard of people going in front of a board or panel of people and given their promotion. 2 things, IMO, should be taken into consideration here. 1) They should all be legit. people. 2) They should all be from the same art as the person testing. In other words, if its a Kenpoist, the panel should all be Kenpo.

Mike

I agree exactly. I have never heard of this happening, it is just my own idea but... I think it would be cool if at levels above master, instead of the master actually testing to promote, a few students of his of varying levels are looked at. Like his most senior student, a new black belt, and a couple color belts. Check out those students' understanding of the art, their technique, their respect and etiquette, etc and base the master's ability from these students. We always say that a student is a reflexion of the master, and it would really show how the master has really contributed to the art, how their teaching is, etc.

I haven't really thought this through, but it seems like a cool idea as I type it here. What do you think?

 

[IcemanSK]

In the case of Senior BB's, who else would promote them but a "jury" of their peers? Otherwise what would it be...A self-promotion? That goes over so well. A "jury of 8th Dans deciding that a fellow 8th Dan should be a 9th makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the case of Senior BB's, who else would promote them but a "jury" of their peers? Otherwise what would it be...A self-promotion? That goes over so well. A "jury of 8th Dans deciding that a fellow 8th Dan should be a 9th makes perfect sense to me.

This tends to make sense, and some of the other comments have been good as well, but it sort of opens a can of worms.

So a jury of 8ths promote a fellow 8th to 9th. I think there can be a trend where they all sort of just get together and promote each other. It kind of becomes a "mutual promotions club", and it kind of makes the rank meaningless.

Sometimes these clubs can start at much earlier stages. Say a bunch of 5ths get together and start promoting themselves all the way up to 10th and beyond. Does this make sense? Maybe it can, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. I'm just giving some food for thought, as this whole rank thing can get twisted up pretty thoroughly about what does it really mean.

And when you put into the picture that many of the 10ths out there were essentially self-promoted, or club elevated, what then does rank bestowed by this person even mean? Does an 8th given by a self-promoted 10th mean anything? Maybe, maybe not. Some people are truly a cut above the rest, and whatever rank they might claim would be justified. Others, no. It just becomes really messy, in my opinion. I guess the only place it matters is within one's own network/organization in the martial arts. Outside that, it really means nothing.

I'm still of the opinion that perhaps the best answer is to eliminate all dan grades. Just have two levels of Black Belt: Non-Teacher, and Teacher. Once you have been granted teacher status, that's it, no further rank. At that point, you should not need another stripe for your belt dangled in front of your face to motivate your training.

I guess I just sort of wonder why someone who is already at a high level and has 40+ years in the arts would be motivated to add another stripe or feel they need more rank. It seems that at that point they should have moved beyond such needs...

Just my thoughts.

 

[Grenadier]

Sometimes these clubs can start at much earlier stages. Say a bunch of 5ths get together and start promoting themselves all the way up to 10th and beyond. Does this make sense? Maybe it can, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. I'm just giving some food for thought, as this whole rank thing can get twisted up pretty thoroughly about what does it really mean.

A valid concern indeed. However, such a council should only be made of the most senior sensei in the system. If all they have are a bunch of 5th dan holders as the senior most people, then that's what it will have to be.

Despite this, though, someone would have to stand out amongst the entire group of peers. While we like to say that all men are created equally, this is simply not the case, and someone would have to step up and claim the highest position in a system. For the most part, a group of 5th dan holders will know who the best is amongst their circle, and who is most likely to be the best leader amongst them (the two are not necessarily the same thing).

If a system is to survive, then they should know that there should only be one head chef guiding the cooks, else the broth gets spoiled. Maybe an assistant chef here and there, but only one chef leads it.

 

[Flying Crane]

A valid concern indeed. However, such a council should only be made of the most senior sensei in the system. If all they have are a bunch of 5th dan holders as the senior most people, then that's what it will have to be.

Despite this, though, someone would have to stand out amongst the entire group of peers. While we like to say that all men are created equally, this is simply not the case, and someone would have to step up and claim the highest position in a system. For the most part, a group of 5th dan holders will know who the best is amongst their circle, and who is most likely to be the best leader amongst them (the two are not necessarily the same thing).

If a system is to survive, then they should know that there should only be one head chef guiding the cooks, else the broth gets spoiled. Maybe an assistant chef here and there, but only one chef leads it.

Right, see, that's the thing. Maybe they think one person really stands out, but by someone else's standards, he is pretty mediocre. So who gets to make that decision and judgement? It's easy for the Club to just start elevating everyone as a matter of habit and policy, and that's the danger. And does this Club suddenly become a formal organization, with leaders and followers, or just a loose association of friends? That can have an impact on what the rank means as well.

I'll give another example. In the capoeira world back in the 1960s, a group was formed in Rio de Janeiro, known as Senzala Group. It started out as a small group of guys who would gather together to train and grow. Most of these guys didn't have a lot of training, but they had tremendous passion for the art, and they trained really hard. Gradually, they were joined by others who had some more training, and they were able to grow together, as newcomers would share what they knew. Some of these people had studied under some of the famous Mestres of the time, but many of them really had a small amount of training. This group grew in size and in talent, and eventually became a very influential group in the Rio capoeira scene. Eventually they established their own ranking system and promoted their own members to Mestre. The group survived for a long time, and perhaps even still survives today, but it also underwent some splintering as some key members split off and went their own ways. Some of these people are currently the movers and shakers in the capoeira world today. So here is an example of a group with limited training who went on to distinguish themselves, and the rank they bestowed upon their own members had merit. And I would say that the early members of Senzala, who had limited training, were not at the equivalent of 5th dan. Rather, they were probably at the capoeira equivalent of brown belts and lower. They had maybe a sporatic couple years of training at most, with a knowledgeable teacher, and that was it.

But there are others who were not part of the Senzala group who criticize their training methods as having lost much of the traditional cultural aspects of the art. While the Senzala group raised the art to a higher technical level, they feel that much of the cultural uniqueness that made Capoeria so unusual and deep in its own way, was lost by Senzala.

Within their own group, the Senzala members were very good and their rank meant something. And they could play very successfully against others from different groups. But outside their group, there were peceived shortcomings in their overall approach to capoeira. Raising the technical level, at the price of losing some of the intangible elements of the art. So where does rank have meaning, and where does this meaning end?

So I'm just giving this as an example, food for thought. Not sure what I am trying to claim or suggest, just giving another scenario to compare and ponder.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I agree exactly. I have never heard of this happening, it is just my own idea but... I think it would be cool if at levels above master, instead of the master actually testing to promote, a few students of his of varying levels are looked at. Like his most senior student, a new black belt, and a couple color belts. Check out those students' understanding of the art, their technique, their respect and etiquette, etc and base the master's ability from these students. We always say that a student is a reflexion of the master, and it would really show how the master has really contributed to the art, how their teaching is, etc.

I haven't really thought this through, but it seems like a cool idea as I type it here. What do you think?

Nice idea!

 

[IcemanSK]

This tends to make sense, and some of the other comments have been good as well, but it sort of opens a can of worms.

So a jury of 8ths promote a fellow 8th to 9th. I think there can be a trend where they all sort of just get together and promote each other. It kind of becomes a "mutual promotions club", and it kind of makes the rank meaningless.

Sometimes these clubs can start at much earlier stages. Say a bunch of 5ths get together and start promoting themselves all the way up to 10th and beyond. Does this make sense? Maybe it can, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. I'm just giving some food for thought, as this whole rank thing can get twisted up pretty thoroughly about what does it really mean.

And when you put into the picture that many of the 10ths out there were essentially self-promoted, or club elevated, what then does rank bestowed by this person even mean? Does an 8th given by a self-promoted 10th mean anything? Maybe, maybe not. Some people are truly a cut above the rest, and whatever rank they might claim would be justified. Others, no. It just becomes really messy, in my opinion. I guess the only place it matters is within one's own network/organization in the martial arts. Outside that, it really means nothing.

I'm still of the opinion that perhaps the best answer is to eliminate all dan grades. Just have two levels of Black Belt: Non-Teacher, and Teacher. Once you have been granted teacher status, that's it, no further rank. At that point, you should not need another stripe for your belt dangled in front of your face to motivate your training.

I guess I just sort of wonder why someone who is already at a high level and has 40+ years in the arts would be motivated to add another stripe or feel they need more rank. It seems that at that point they should have moved beyond such needs...

Just my thoughts.

I s'pose I was counting too heavily on folks using the "better angels of their nature" rather than being typical MA-ists.

I'm going to knight myself, the "Illustrious Potentate" for my further contribution to the arts in this thread. Any one wanna second it?:ultracool

 

[Flying Crane]

I s'pose I was counting too heavily on folks using the "better angels of their nature" rather than being typical MA-ists.

I'm going to knight myself, the "Illustrious Potentate" for my further contribution to the arts in this thread. Any one wanna second it?:ultracool

Done!

 

[crushing]

Is there an MA historian here that can tell us who was the first MAist to ever get 1st Dan and how he got it? Or, how about the first person to move up a gup level?

Was self or peer promotion fine as long it happened a long time ago, but now-a-days should be viewed with suspicion? What is the alternative?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's an idea....

What if we established a theoretical top rank at say....20th dan. All "requirements" as they stand currently for ranks up to the existing 10th dan would remain as they are.

So let's say, just for the sake of discussion, there is a minimum time requirement (i'm not saying this is the best way to approach it, but just for discussion sake, lets accept this). Let's say it takes a minimum of 5 years to reach first dan. For each progressive level, there is a minimum number of years equal to the next grade. So for 2nd, you need 2 years at first, for third you need 3 years at second, etc. If you started training at age seven, you would have to live at least to the age of 221 to reach 20th dan.

What this means is that 20th dan is unreachable. It exists in theory, perhaps to act as a reminder that no matter who you are, no matter how much you know, no matter how good you are, there is always room to learn and grow.

Now, it would be interesting to see who tries to start claiming these ranks, above 10th. Maybe someone would even try to claim 20th. What an insight it would be into those people. Personally, I think those would be the people to avoid like the plague that they are.

The lesson should be a simple one: at some point, rank becomes truly meaningless. Just keep training, learning, and growing. That's it. Forget the rank.

Maybe this lesson needs to be learned within the existing rank structure of 1-10 dan. Perhaps somewhere around 5th, we'd all be better off just forgetting to count any further, and not thinking about it any more...

 

[Flying Crane]

Is there an MA historian here that can tell us who was the first MAist to ever get 1st Dan and how he got it? Or, how about the first person to move up a gup level?

Was self or peer promotion fine as long it happened a long time ago, but now-a-days should be viewed with suspicion? What is the alternative?

I believe the roots of the current system started with Jigoro Kano and Judo. He established the Kyu/Dan system, and used to to promote his students. I don't know what rank he claimed for himself.

 

[Laurentkd]

If I know the story correctly, Jigoro Kano gave black belts to two of his top students. Before then a scroll (sort of) was passed on to the top student showing that they were now able to pass on the system. So Kano as the first to one to award belts. I believe he gave everyone else white belts, so there were only two belts at that time. I THINK, though I am not certain, he wore a white belt that was double wide (???) Dave Lowery has a really good book on Japanese traditions in martial arts, I'll have to look it up later on.
Unless someone who knows the story better than me posts before then (which is quite likely!)

 

[terryl965]

This is my take on the whole thing been doing MA for 40 years and I have achieved rank in two arts Karate and TKD over that time I'm a 4th Dan in TKD, I see people that was white belts when I got my first and know they are eighth dans does this mean they are a better person than me no, all this means to me is they have all taken the rank sysytem to the max. I believe in the two philosophies One is a teacher of said system the other is a student of said teacher. Do I use the rank system yes does it matter to my student no not really because they all get the same lecture,rank means this in today world you have been around long enough to get that color belt but it does not mean you have been around enough to understand the belt you are wearing.

Today I can officially name myself GM if I so choose to and none of you here ar anywhere can disprouth it, you may not like it but it is what I want and in America we have the law to say we can be what we choice to be, now mind you this will never happen and I can say sitting here that I will never ever test again no-matter how long I'm in the Arts, the test lost all meaning to me when I was ask to be promoted to 7th and they would sign off on mee and all I had to do was pay big buck let say 25,000 and I would have all my paperwork showing my dan rank from the Kukkiwon, if you know the right people anything is possible that is why I congratulate all that have the higher rank and refuse to have a higher rank.

Sorry this is my perspective on this matter.

There are some great Martial Artest that have high ranks and I appreciate all that they have done and then there is the guy next door with no rank working his butt off day in and day out to get to perfection without a belt, he is the man I hold the most respect for.

Terry

 

[Kacey]

I think it is necessary to have a system in place - but at the same time, if the participants in the system do not demonstrate integrity in following the spirit of the system, then no system, no matter how well thought out, will work. There will always be people who are true martial artists, body and soul, and there will always be people who are practicing martial artists but not at the level previously described, there will always be dabblers, and there will always be people whose sole interest in rank is personal ego. No matter what your level of involvement, your amount of knowledge, your physical ability, etc., any system can subverted for the purposes of ego or money - only the integrity of the individual martial artist and the organization to which s/he belongs will determine if the system is used appropriately. Others outside the organization may have personal knowledge or persons who may attain high rank and offer input, as appropriate; still others, who lack the personal knowledge will also offer input - appropriate or not. In the end, only the practitioner and his/her instructor (if still around) can determine if a person is deserving of very high rank; if appropriate the person's organization can also participate in this process. But it still, IMHO, comes back to the integrity of those participating in the particular organization and, when appropriate, affiliated organization, to determine who is worthy of the highest ranks.

For lower ranks, it is the organization's responsibility to apply the same level of integrity when testing students to all ranks - to look at the person's ability, growth, any disabilities, etc. - when awarding rank. Anything else cheapens the rank thus bestowed.

 

[jdinca]

Depends. Our GM was promoted to 10th degree by Al Tracy, also a 10th degree. Our GM has decided the promotions of his students. The highest rank is currently 6th degree in a 10 degree system.

I also know that degrees are awarded by committee but usually the upper ranks have more to do with contribution to the arts and the character of the person in question, than it does physical movement.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

A good friend of mine and advisor to my system is stuck at 8th Dan. His highest ranking black belt is 4th dan and over 40 years has only promoted 19 people to shodan but his black belts are top grade. So I have arranged to have a Okinawan 10th Dan present him with his 9th Dan. I have seen and frankly it disgusts me people hold various dan grades under 4th dan promote their instructor from 5th Dan to 7th Dan and I have seen people get promoted through their friends from 3rd Dan to 8th Dan and 2 years later that person jumped 9th Dan and got 10th Dan. It can be absolutely crazy, boards of peers are a good way to go. They are known has a shihankai in many organizations.

 

[Marginal]

Occasionally on MartialTalk (and elsewhere) someone reports news of a high ranking black belt being promoted. And, sometimes the news is met with controversy over how the senior has been promoted.

In your opinion, how should a senior be promoted from, say, 7th dan to 8th dan? Or 8th dan to 9th dan? What are your ideas and thoughts?

(No flames please...just curious to see what different folks think)

I thought the whole point of higher ranks was for people outside your respective organization to arbitrailly disqualify and denigrate any promotions within your org.