Twin Fist
Grandmaster
wrong answer again
supermax requires less gaurds, less facilities (gyms, libraries, classrooms etc), less medical staff (everyone in solitary, less injuries), less of everything.
Prison Overcrowding
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
wrong answer again
supermax requires less gaurds, less facilities (gyms, libraries, classrooms etc), less medical staff (everyone in solitary, less injuries), less of everything.
I agree with Twin Fist on this one..I know a lot of CO's that would transfer to a Supermax in heartbeat...BTW bad behavior is rewarded by time in the hole...
Empty Hands
Senior Master
They do that. It still doesn't stop guards from getting hurt or killed.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Nope. "According to a study by the Urban Institute, the per-cell cost of a Supermax is about $75,000 annually, compared to $25,000 for each cell in an ordinary state prison." LINK
Think about it for a minute. You have an entire facility, that houses about 500 inmates. Meanwhile, other facilities, even max security ones, house thousands.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
See my post above to TF. In any case, I don't see why CO's wanting to work in one makes them cheaper.
Exactly my point. If inmates are already functionally "in the hole" on a permanent basis, then you have nothing to punish bad behavior with.
This statement reads you as being quite cavalier with other people's lives. I question anyone's judgment who values life so little. It's one thing to be intolerant of crime; it's another to play God with a gun on a canned shoot.
Also, not every prisoner who is in a riot wants to be rioting...riots happen. They erupt.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
sure you do, it's called a night stick
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
yep, you got me, i am quite cold hearted when it comes to the lives of POS dirtbag criminals.
pardon me, i have to go feel guilty...............
nothing but love for ya, but i will NEVER be overly concerned with the well being of criminals.
If the day ever comes that you become a dirtbag criminal, you very well might care exactly what your rights are and why someone thought it fine and dandy to double-tap you in the head for fighting for your life in a massive, all-out prison riot.
But of course, you'll never become one, right? Because all the laws that will ever be passed will be right and just, right? And there will never be a reason to stand up and revolt, right?
Right?
So you won't ever need that gun you fiercely protect your right to own, bear and carry.
And you won't ever need the right to free speech because you'll never need to say anything against the government.
And you'll never need to defend yourself up to the point of killing someone ... unless you live in a rare castle doctrine state what WON'T prosecute your *** for shooting someone in your home or on your grounds.
And you'll never need the right to a fair trial by your peers because you live ... where again?
Yeah, all necessary and defendable rights have been won and are left untouched. We have a pristine, honest and forthright government that puts the needs of the people first. Our constitution is defended moment-by-moment by all legislature and elected and appointed officials. There's not a good guy in the USA that will ever be a criminal for any reason because ... there's always the assurance that everything's gonna be okay ... as long as we remain afraid enough to justify war, greedy enough to buy tons of crap we don't need and trust our politicians to do the right thing.
:lookie:
Suuuuuuuure.
Or, if Christianity is your thing there's always this: "That which you do to the least of men, so you do to the Son of God." I rather like that one.
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Hmmm...dirt bag criminals? Yes, there are definitely some that fit that definition and do indeed deserve to be locked up for the safety of society.
However… they only make up about 5 % of the total prison population in the US. Who are the rest? Well, the vast majority are in for petty crimes, mostly drug related.
So, what happens? There are a few reasons.
First, laws were passed by a legislative branch that wanted to secure votes from a worried public and be “tough on crime.” (It’s still being used as a term) These laws took away discretion from judges and gave mandatory sentences. So, those who did something petty are now in for longer durations than was used to be.
Second, those criminals came from certain areas where they were easily caught due to trafficking on street corners, as opposed to inside houses (Where the majority of use and selling in huge quantities actually goes on). This made the prison population boom, and made politicians keep their promise, and could show the numbers.
Third, more and more prisoners are showing signs of mental problems. They used to be apart of those types of facilities, but those closed down and put them out in the streets. They commit petty crime, get caught, and sentenced. The drugs wear off and their real mentality is exposed. They are defiant and violent, etc… and get upgraded to max prisons with the rest of these people.
Now picture you are just a petty offender and in with the hard crocks and violent crazies. You have a very long sentence (longer than usual) and have to survive. What actions do you need to take? What personality do you develop? Plus, solitary confinement (the results) does even more wonder to your psyche. You have no family ties as the prison is in a rural area or way upstate as well, to keep you grounded somewhat.
Oh yeah, now to the booming prison industry. States borrow money to pay for the building of these institutions. Through the years and with the boom in population, the costs are approaching a million dollars for every one added now. Where do they get the money, being financially strapped? They borrow it. How do they pay it back? They have to slash budgets for the public, like social services etc… Who get hit the hardest? Upper class? Middle class? A little, but their wealth allows it to be absorbed. How about the lowest of the socioeconomic ladder? They take it between the eyes! They can least afford it too, as the economics of their area is already in the toilet.
Remember those more alienated prisoners due to the situational factors? They get released, an overwhelming majority, back to those areas! Now, there is less help for all, more alienated mentalities, and less hope. What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!
In turn, the community screams for more police and police action, more of that means more arrests, more arrests= more convictions, more convictions of repeat offenders longer terms, longer terms= more of a population= more prisons needed or quicker releases of lower threats.
See the cycle?
Over crowding? Yes, 3 in 1 man cells, more coming in and staying longer, more costs needed etc. etc. etc….
Prisons are apart of the correctional system. So do we keep the same course and punish, where the funding is going to sink us all? Or do we "correct" behaviors and reduce recidivism and costs, plus make the eventual releases productive as opposed to more of the problem, just worse now?
However… they only make up about 5 % of the total prison population in the US. Who are the rest? Well, the vast majority are in for petty crimes, mostly drug related.
So, what happens? There are a few reasons.
First, laws were passed by a legislative branch that wanted to secure votes from a worried public and be “tough on crime.” (It’s still being used as a term) These laws took away discretion from judges and gave mandatory sentences. So, those who did something petty are now in for longer durations than was used to be.
Second, those criminals came from certain areas where they were easily caught due to trafficking on street corners, as opposed to inside houses (Where the majority of use and selling in huge quantities actually goes on). This made the prison population boom, and made politicians keep their promise, and could show the numbers.
Third, more and more prisoners are showing signs of mental problems. They used to be apart of those types of facilities, but those closed down and put them out in the streets. They commit petty crime, get caught, and sentenced. The drugs wear off and their real mentality is exposed. They are defiant and violent, etc… and get upgraded to max prisons with the rest of these people.
Now picture you are just a petty offender and in with the hard crocks and violent crazies. You have a very long sentence (longer than usual) and have to survive. What actions do you need to take? What personality do you develop? Plus, solitary confinement (the results) does even more wonder to your psyche. You have no family ties as the prison is in a rural area or way upstate as well, to keep you grounded somewhat.
Oh yeah, now to the booming prison industry. States borrow money to pay for the building of these institutions. Through the years and with the boom in population, the costs are approaching a million dollars for every one added now. Where do they get the money, being financially strapped? They borrow it. How do they pay it back? They have to slash budgets for the public, like social services etc… Who get hit the hardest? Upper class? Middle class? A little, but their wealth allows it to be absorbed. How about the lowest of the socioeconomic ladder? They take it between the eyes! They can least afford it too, as the economics of their area is already in the toilet.
Remember those more alienated prisoners due to the situational factors? They get released, an overwhelming majority, back to those areas! Now, there is less help for all, more alienated mentalities, and less hope. What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!
In turn, the community screams for more police and police action, more of that means more arrests, more arrests= more convictions, more convictions of repeat offenders longer terms, longer terms= more of a population= more prisons needed or quicker releases of lower threats.
See the cycle?
Over crowding? Yes, 3 in 1 man cells, more coming in and staying longer, more costs needed etc. etc. etc….
Prisons are apart of the correctional system. So do we keep the same course and punish, where the funding is going to sink us all? Or do we "correct" behaviors and reduce recidivism and costs, plus make the eventual releases productive as opposed to more of the problem, just worse now?
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #52
I agree with you, however, when I was a CO, I had a guy who was looking at life in prison for murder, tell me that taking something away from him really didn't matter. If he did something wrong, ie: violated the unit rules, assaulted an inmate or CO, etc., and something was taken away, such as visits for a week, phone calls, access to the prison store, etc., it didn't matter, because he was looking at life behind bars. So what, big deal, they take away my phone calls...I'm not going anywhere.
Mind you, this guy never gave me any headaches. In fact, there were a few times, while dealing with others in the block, that he actually came to my defense, if you want to call it that, and told the other guy to bascially shut the hell up and cut the ****.
True, but I don't think that 4hrs of rec time is necessary either. After all you're in jail, not in your own house. On the other hand, last night I was chatting with a co-worker about that guy in AZ, Sheriff Joe. Hmm...maybe his methods should be put into play everywhere. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. And if we want to talk expenses, perhaps all of the programs they offer should be looked at as well. Like I said, I have to wonder how many actually use the programs for something other than a freebie to leave the block.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
I can't speak for every prison/jail in the world, but I can for the ones in CT. I had no tools available to me, other than the 'self defense' if thats what you want to call it, that was taught in the academy. I thank God that I had training other than what they taught.
The Supervisors had OC and cuffs. So, in the block, where the odds are 51/1 and the dorms, 100+/2..well, if the poop hits the fan, you better start swinging or try to get the hell out of dodge.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
again witht he claim that "(insert really high number) of inmates are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs"
I dont buy it
anyone got any HARD numbers?
Not to mention that drugs are serious business. They destroy lives, and COST lives. A sizable chunk of murders, are drug related. A bigger chunk of robberies are because of drugs. There is nuthing "minor" about drugs
And Shesulsa.
I dont do drugs, i dont drink, i dont rape women, I dont kill people, i dont rob people, and I dont steal. so I will never GO to prison. Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that I go out today and hit a patch of ice, and have a car wreck where someone is killed. Accident. Manslaughter, which I wouldnt even be charged with, but if i was, thats what it would be.
As a first time offender, I would most likely get a suspended sentence. Thats what happened to Laura Bush, and she wasnt rich, she was a librarian with a clean record who had an accident.
As has been pointed out, we bend over backwards to NOT send people to prison. If they actually go to jail, it is most likely because they have long criminal records that mandate prison time. After 2,3,4,5, or more convictions, thier *** belongs in prison.
this garbage about how little Teddy got sent to the big house for having a little baby bag of pot that was just for his own use is just that
garbage
as for the COST of prison, well gee, the prisons in texas used to be ALL prison farms, and they ALL made a profit.
It was hard work, the inmates were too tired to act up. And the farms fed the inmates, and sold the surplus for a profit. Till touchy feely liberals sued and found a judge that said it wasnt NICE to make the poor rapist work all day in the sun.............
pfffft
I dont buy it
anyone got any HARD numbers?
Not to mention that drugs are serious business. They destroy lives, and COST lives. A sizable chunk of murders, are drug related. A bigger chunk of robberies are because of drugs. There is nuthing "minor" about drugs
And Shesulsa.
I dont do drugs, i dont drink, i dont rape women, I dont kill people, i dont rob people, and I dont steal. so I will never GO to prison. Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that I go out today and hit a patch of ice, and have a car wreck where someone is killed. Accident. Manslaughter, which I wouldnt even be charged with, but if i was, thats what it would be.
As a first time offender, I would most likely get a suspended sentence. Thats what happened to Laura Bush, and she wasnt rich, she was a librarian with a clean record who had an accident.
As has been pointed out, we bend over backwards to NOT send people to prison. If they actually go to jail, it is most likely because they have long criminal records that mandate prison time. After 2,3,4,5, or more convictions, thier *** belongs in prison.
this garbage about how little Teddy got sent to the big house for having a little baby bag of pot that was just for his own use is just that
garbage
as for the COST of prison, well gee, the prisons in texas used to be ALL prison farms, and they ALL made a profit.
It was hard work, the inmates were too tired to act up. And the farms fed the inmates, and sold the surplus for a profit. Till touchy feely liberals sued and found a judge that said it wasnt NICE to make the poor rapist work all day in the sun.............
pfffft
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
MJS
you were a CO, would you say that the statement "the vast majority of prisoners are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs" is true or as I suspect is it crap?
you were a CO, would you say that the statement "the vast majority of prisoners are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs" is true or as I suspect is it crap?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Not to mention when some dirtbag gets out, and thinks "hell I did years, it wasnt that bad, What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!
make prison a BAD place again and that problem will go away
make prison a BAD place again and that problem will go away
I can't speak for every prison/jail in the world, but I can for the ones in CT. I had no tools available to me, other than the 'self defense' if thats what you want to call it, that was taught in the academy. I thank God that I had training other than what they taught.
The Supervisors had OC and cuffs. So, in the block, where the odds are 51/1 and the dorms, 100+/2..well, if the poop hits the fan, you better start swinging or try to get the hell out of dodge.
It was for that reason alone I turned down a chance to be a CO in sunny Fla...
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If prison is such a fun place, feel free to work there or join the group.
No prisoner, after many years in will say it was easy.
More torture, more long sentences, Super max prisons like Pelican Bay, still have had no dent sir! The violence continues.
Again, the majority will be re-released sometime. Think about it. Do you want productive members or more violent ones from years of alienation and abuse?
What does that mean to those who have to work and control them? Police them? Live among them?
We've tried the punishment theme and agenda for decades now. So much of an increase, you can't build prisons fast enough! Building another and another is like getting another bucket to fill with the leaking water that is now gushing! Plug the hole!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #59
Not quite sure who you're addressing the above to. I know that I mentioned some numbers in my post. Just for clarification, the numbers were the inmate to CO ratio. Where I worked, there were 3 corridors in the block, each of which contained 17 inmates. The dorms housed over 100 inmates and 2 COs.
The majority of people in there for drugs that I knew of, were ones that dealt with them on a larger scale. Were there guys in there for small drug offenses? Sure. Did the small timers out number the big timers? IMO no. Some stats that I found for July 2008 listed sale of hallucinogen/narcotic substance as 1,823 and possession of narcotics as 1,024. The stats are not broken down into large/small scale. The main reason I say no, in addition to what I already said, was because many of the rap sheets that I've seen, the small narc. charges were dropped.
I hope that answers your question.
ginshun
2nd Black Belt
I don't know what the solution is, but there has to be one. We gotta be doing something different than other places, seeing as how we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than anyplace else on earth. Are we just worse people or is there something different about our system?
I say make capitol punishment easier. Any degree murder, attempted murder, rape or child molestation...all mandatory death sentence - no decisions for the judge and jury to make but guilty or not guilty. You get one appeal after that you get one week to say goodbye and you get to choose the method of your death, end of story.
Drugs? Treat all of them the same way alcohol is treated right now. Legal but with the same restrictions - no under 18 using, no driving, ect. If its not profitable for people to sell drugs, then they won't. And they also won't be shooting, stabbing and robbing each other or other people over them. Sure things may be touch and go for a couple years, but the real druggies would weed themselves out soon enough.
I say make capitol punishment easier. Any degree murder, attempted murder, rape or child molestation...all mandatory death sentence - no decisions for the judge and jury to make but guilty or not guilty. You get one appeal after that you get one week to say goodbye and you get to choose the method of your death, end of story.
Drugs? Treat all of them the same way alcohol is treated right now. Legal but with the same restrictions - no under 18 using, no driving, ect. If its not profitable for people to sell drugs, then they won't. And they also won't be shooting, stabbing and robbing each other or other people over them. Sure things may be touch and go for a couple years, but the real druggies would weed themselves out soon enough.
