Prison Overcrowding

[seasoned]

getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........

Ok, I almost chocked on my coffee, over that one. Sounds like a winner to me.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Real simple.

Initiate a total lockdown.

Determine which inmates are on death row or have done crimes such as those outlined in earlier posts which either cannot be cured or otherwise require and/or deserve death.

Take the list.

Distribute weapons and ammo amongst guards.

Make your start in D block.

 

[MJS]

Yup. This is a MUCH better solution than tossing them in Jail because:

a) It frees up space
b) It puts them in a position to pay thereby helping the family that needs it

Although In many cases they are working and just not paying... in which case a Garnishment is more practical than tossing them in the overcrowded prison system.

Downside of that, is I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't try to get a job where they were paid 'under the table.' Then again, the courts, I suppose, could place him in a job, where a portion of his pay was taken.

 

[punisher73]

Yup. This is a MUCH better solution than tossing them in Jail because:

a) It frees up space
b) It puts them in a position to pay thereby helping the family that needs it

Although In many cases they are working and just not paying... in which case a Garnishment is more practical than tossing them in the overcrowded prison system.

The problem of child support is not an easy one to do. I was assigned to our transport division for around 3 years and had to sit in literally HUNDREDS of different FOC hearings. I can only speak for our county, but I noticed the following.

1) They aren't trying to hammer everyone that misses a payment. The only time they are sent to jail is when they don't show up for their court hearing on why they haven't payed. I have seen plenty of people show up that have missed payments due to loss of job etc and the judge would give them some time to start up again if they were making payments regularly before. The biggest thing I saw was guys not making payments due to loss of their job and just didn't pay, they NEVER talked to their case workers about it and kept them informed of their situations.

2) Garnishment sounds like a good idea, but I have seen TOO MANY guys that get paid under the table to avoid that, or bounce from job to job to avoid making payments and garnishments.

3) In our county, even if you are found in contempt you are given 90 days (which is the max in Michigan on a civil contempt for this). They are given time served for 2 weeks so they qualify for work furlough. This allows them to get out of jail and get a job (or if they have a job, go back to working) part of the agreement is that they must set up an automatic withdrawl of their support so it is sent automatically. Again, I see LOTS of guys that just don't do it, they just don't want to pay PERIOD.

That being said, I realize that there are some guys that get caught in the system, but the vast majority of people in jail for FOC is because they are CHOOSING not to comply with the court orders.

I also don't buy the statistic of "non-violent" drug users crowding our prisons. How are they defining that one? In Michigan with sentencing guidelines you are not going to prison on a simple possession charge unless you have some other things involved like...

1) You have committed MULTIPLE felonies in the past that raise your guidelines

2) You are already on Parole from a previous prison stay

3) You had ALOT of drugs and were sent for selling/delivary of them

4) Multiple arrests for drugs will increase the penalty also

Here is a link with some statistics on drug use and prisons
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm

Our society puts up with alot of crap from people before we put them away. It is rare that a first time offender on a minor felony gets sent to prison. You usually work your way up by exhausting other methods first.

 

[shesulsa]

Wow - a lot of things to address.

The deadbeat parent is pretty much a whole other topic we should really go into on this board, so I'll start a thread in the Study later when I have time to dig up some references. But I think the reason they jail dead beat parents is because that sector is the cause for a large portion of welfare families. More than half the people on welfare are children. Wanna reduce the national debt? Federally enforce child support and put those people who repeatedly don't pay on a federally secured job program where they have to work and their pay is docked.

I also think in every custody case and divorce cases involving children that wage and benefit garnishment for the non-custodial parent should be mandated federally. That way when Shirking Sally moves from So. Cal. to Las Vegas to avoid paying her old man rent for her kids the cross-state cooperation will be more efficient.

I think we need to look long and hard at some of the things we send people to jail for.​

I don't disagree. I think possession of a joint, pipe or roach clip is nothing compared to a kilo of cocaine. I also think people who hurt others in self-defense should be released. Write to Governor Schwarzenegger about the women on his review list.
​

getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........

Ya think? Hasn't worked for too many so far ... of course it's just far too easy to pay someone cash under the table instead of reporting them and paying the burden. Can't legislate ethics, eh?

[/left]
Yeah, ensuring someone cannot work is a really great way of getting them to pay bills...

Hard to argue ... see my suggestion above.

Put an end to the idiot idea that prison is for rehabilitation. Prison is for PUNISHMENT. Remember that the Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crimes. Don't put skilled individuals to work picking up garbage, that is a waste of training and talent. Utilize the skills of criminals.

Mmmmm ... there's good and bad in that. Some ex-cons can be rehabilitated. Case-in-point, I came across a fella who had a felony record for burglary when he was 19. Nineteen. Young, dumb and full of ... something. He's 48 now and that felony is still on his record even though he never reoffended. Would you say he was rehabilitated? It's not impossible, though I acknowledge that it's rare due to several factors, not all of which are under the perp's control.

Take all recreational privileges away from all convicted criminals. Make all convicted criminals work and do NOT pay them.

That's been tried and it serves to create an extremely tense atmosphere. I don't disagree with hard physical labor for most inmates - seems to wear off some testosterone and boost the dopamine levels. There's brain chemistry to take into account, not just behavior. Remember - all behavior is communication ... you just have to know how to listen.

Other than the 6 months worth that you miss while you are in right? That helps the mother and kids. Uh huh.

And TECHNICALLY, the 6 months isn't for missing the payment... its for Contempt of Court for not paying your court ordered fines. *rolls eyes*

Because they had to define the technicality to use the thread of jail/prison as incentive. Pay up or get butt-raped. Some find it an easy choice, others run from the law.

AMEN!!! 4hrs of rec time to shower, watch tv, play board games, phone calls, visits, etc. Wait a minute, I thought these guys were in prison, not club med.

Exactly my point of making it a place that you don't want to come back to.

See my point above.

What really needs to happen, is these guys need to be forced to get their lazy *** to work. I don't care if its McDonalds or picking up garbage on the side of the road. Make them work. And perhaps send them to the doc for a little snip. Maybe then we won't have to worry about them producing 10 kids with 10 different women. People always ask my wife and I when we're having kids. I say I can't afford them, because I'm paying for all of the other kids that the dead-beat dads forgot about.

Preach to the choir!!! I think in some states that the welfare office can force the condition of sterilization. I'm ALL for that ... but I think the problem is that can interfere with religious beliefs - legally anyway.

Downside of that, is I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't try to get a job where they were paid 'under the table.' Then again, the courts, I suppose, could place him in a job, where a portion of his pay was taken.

Oh gawd, it happens all the freakin' time. How many contractors to build or remodel your home have benefits? Ever wonder why?

Y'all might not know this, but in most states it is not required to report new hires to the state board of support enforcement. There are many voluntary programs, but none are mandated (to my knowledge). So if your company hires Joe or Jane Slacker who has warrants out for failure to pay child support you don't have to tell anyone that you hired them for a $100,000 sales manager job. So tracking them becomes near impossible. Even if the IRS or SS departments find activity on their SSN and flag it for support enforcement and SE sends a letter to the possible employer, that employer doesn't have to even respond.

See? I told you child support enforcement should be a separate topic.

But these folks were given jail as an alternative in the hopes of a cheap and easy deterrent to non-payment. Same with suspended driver's licenses. But we can all see how well those deterrents work.

 

[Empty Hands]

First, out of curiosity, where did you come up with the stats? Is there a link that gives additional info, etc?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Second, IMO, there is nothing about prison that deters people.

Other than that whole loss of freedom plus plenty of rape thing?

 

[Empty Hands]

Man, some of you people are disturbing. Remind me not to get on your bad sides.

 

[shesulsa]

Man, some of you people are disturbing. Remind me not to get on your bad sides.

Okay. Don't get on my bad side.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Man, some of you people are disturbing. Remind me not to get on your bad sides.

*shrug* I said simple, not necessarily "easy".

 

[Big Don]

Tense? Make any attack (even Verbal) on guards (who, now that they are in a union are called Corrections Officers) a felony with an automatic 5 year (at labor) sentence, no plea bargaining. Still tense? They obviously aren't working hard or long enough.

 

[MJS]

The problem of child support is not an easy one to do. I was assigned to our transport division for around 3 years and had to sit in literally HUNDREDS of different FOC hearings. I can only speak for our county, but I noticed the following.

1) They aren't trying to hammer everyone that misses a payment. The only time they are sent to jail is when they don't show up for their court hearing on why they haven't payed. I have seen plenty of people show up that have missed payments due to loss of job etc and the judge would give them some time to start up again if they were making payments regularly before. The biggest thing I saw was guys not making payments due to loss of their job and just didn't pay, they NEVER talked to their case workers about it and kept them informed of their situations.

2) Garnishment sounds like a good idea, but I have seen TOO MANY guys that get paid under the table to avoid that, or bounce from job to job to avoid making payments and garnishments.

3) In our county, even if you are found in contempt you are given 90 days (which is the max in Michigan on a civil contempt for this). They are given time served for 2 weeks so they qualify for work furlough. This allows them to get out of jail and get a job (or if they have a job, go back to working) part of the agreement is that they must set up an automatic withdrawl of their support so it is sent automatically. Again, I see LOTS of guys that just don't do it, they just don't want to pay PERIOD.

That being said, I realize that there are some guys that get caught in the system, but the vast majority of people in jail for FOC is because they are CHOOSING not to comply with the court orders.

If they don't pay, refuse to get a job, etc., then lock their rear up. If they can't live up to their end of the deal, then they shouldn't be free to walk around.

I also don't buy the statistic of "non-violent" drug users crowding our prisons. How are they defining that one? In Michigan with sentencing guidelines you are not going to prison on a simple possession charge unless you have some other things involved like...

1) You have committed MULTIPLE felonies in the past that raise your guidelines

2) You are already on Parole from a previous prison stay

3) You had ALOT of drugs and were sent for selling/delivary of them

4) Multiple arrests for drugs will increase the penalty also

Here is a link with some statistics on drug use and prisons
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm

Our society puts up with alot of crap from people before we put them away. It is rare that a first time offender on a minor felony gets sent to prison. You usually work your way up by exhausting other methods first.

Agreed.

 

[Big Don]

Wow - a lot of things to address.

The deadbeat parent is pretty much a whole other topic we should really go into on this board, so I'll start a thread in the Study later when I have time to dig up some references. But I think the reason they jail dead beat parents is because that sector is the cause for a large portion of welfare families. More than half the people on welfare are children. Wanna reduce the national debt? Federally enforce child support and put those people who repeatedly don't pay on a federally secured job program where they have to work and their pay is docked.

I also think in every custody case and divorce cases involving children that wage and benefit garnishment for the non-custodial parent should be mandated federally. That way when Shirking Sally moves from So. Cal. to Las Vegas to avoid paying her old man rent for her kids the cross-state cooperation will be more efficient.

Thank you for mentioning that not all deadbeat parents are fathers. As the father of a son with a deadbeat mother (awkward way to put it?) the focus of "deadbeat dad this" and "deadbeat dad that" is a tad annoying.

 

[MJS]

Preach to the choir!!! I think in some states that the welfare office can force the condition of sterilization. I'm ALL for that ... but I think the problem is that can interfere with religious beliefs - legally anyway.

Of course, another option would be to limit how long someone can milk, er, I mean, use the system. I know times are hard, especially in todays world, but like I said, I don't give a crap if you work at McDonalds...GET A JOB!!! If someone knew that in say 5 mos, their free ride would end, that may inspire those lazy ones to get off their *** and pound the pavement.

Oh gawd, it happens all the freakin' time. How many contractors to build or remodel your home have benefits? Ever wonder why?

Y'all might not know this, but in most states it is not required to report new hires to the state board of support enforcement. There are many voluntary programs, but none are mandated (to my knowledge). So if your company hires Joe or Jane Slacker who has warrants out for failure to pay child support you don't have to tell anyone that you hired them for a $100,000 sales manager job. So tracking them becomes near impossible. Even if the IRS or SS departments find activity on their SSN and flag it for support enforcement and SE sends a letter to the possible employer, that employer doesn't have to even respond.

See? I told you child support enforcement should be a separate topic.

But these folks were given jail as an alternative in the hopes of a cheap and easy deterrent to non-payment. Same with suspended driver's licenses. But we can all see how well those deterrents work.

Yup, sadly there're more POS people running around and the system can't keep up, so the good ones suffer. Par for the course I guess.

 

[Empty Hands]

Tense? Make any attack (even Verbal) on guards (who, now that they are in a union are called Corrections Officers) a felony with an automatic 5 year (at labor) sentence, no plea bargaining. Still tense? They obviously aren't working hard or long enough.

Enjoy the riots.

 

[celtic_crippler]

My 0.02...

In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist.

Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?

 

[MJS]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Thanks.

Other than that whole loss of freedom plus plenty of rape thing?

True. However, the fact still remains that they get alot of comfy things as well. Perhaps if they were allowed out for 1hr only per day, in addition to eating in their cell...well, the thought of sitting in a shoebox for 23 out of 24, just may be what it takes.

 

[MJS]

My 0.02...

In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist.

Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?

2 way street IMO. Part of the treatment is wanting to be treated. Believe me, I used to see 20 people get up and leave to go to AA, Bible Study and all of the other programs that're offered. I had to wonder...are they really looking for help or is this a way to get out of the block for a few?

 

[Empty Hands]

However, the fact still remains that they get alot of comfy things as well. Perhaps if they were allowed out for 1hr only per day, in addition to eating in their cell...well, the thought of sitting in a shoebox for 23 out of 24, just may be what it takes.

From the accounts of corrections officers I have seen, they prefer that the inmates have some amenities. It makes the inmates feel like they have something, and cuts down on bad behavior. Plus it gives you something to take away for that bad behavior.

The 23/24 method is basically the SuperMax, which would be fantastically expensive to apply for all inmates. Not to mention unnecessary and inhumane. It's essentially an entire term of solitary confinement.

 

[Twin Fist]

Enjoy the riots.

if they riot,i dont know, SHOOT THEM maybe?

 

[Twin Fist]

My 0.02...

In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist.

Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?

drug addicts dont get locked up for being addicts, they get locked up for breaking the law, as in buying drugs, using drugs, and all the crime that is associated with drugs, like the car jackings, and robberies that addicts all do to pay for thier habits