Pressure testing self-defence techniques

[RoninPimp]

I may be wrong here, but I believe what people are saying is that MMA has rules, the street does not. In MMA, if I find myself in a clinch position, I can't reach up and gouge the eyes.

You are correct. But unless you are in control in the clinch, you most likely won't be able to eye gouge. How does one get good in the clinch? MMA training is a good place to start. Want to make it even more close to the str33t? Add a gi top and goggles so you can grab clothing and eye gouge. It's all about the training method. The training method. THE TRAINING METHOD!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Course, in the school, you rarely have to worry about the guy you're rollin with sticking something unpleasant in your ribs.

Little different down at the bar.

 

[RoninPimp]

It's easy enough to add hidden and obvious training knives to the same training method.

 

[Hand Sword]

Treat it like the Pink Panther movies. Have an assistant always try to catch you "asleep", and attack you, whereever, whenever, and however !

 

[MJS]

You are correct. But unless you are in control in the clinch, you most likely won't be able to eye gouge. How does one get good in the clinch? MMA training is a good place to start. Want to make it even more close to the str33t? Add a gi top and goggles so you can grab clothing and eye gouge. It's all about the training method. The training method. THE TRAINING METHOD!

When I read posts like this, I always wonder about a few things.

1) Why everyone thinks that they'll always be facing a trained fighter on the street.

2) That everyone they may have a confrontation with is going to be an 'expert' grappler.

3) That anyone who trains in MMA is going to be immune to an eye gouge, or any of those other supposed useless MA techniques. You know...the ones that can't be 'pressure tested'

Mike

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Personally, I don´t even like the expression MMA. I train in Muay Thai and I have some significante judo experience, but I do not consider myself a MMA guy.

I believe the MMA practice, as espoused here, should be taken in context: IMHO, the best thing such a practice offers self defense minded practitioners is the pressure testing mentality, NOT the sportive events themselves. It forces people to actually think about the limitations of their techniques, and it forces people to create new methods to TEST them, not taking anything for granted.

Do you want to know if eye gouges are workable? Pressure test them, and stop complaining about their prohibition in MMA events! Put on some goggles, find some training partners, and PRACTICE them!

Instead of trying too hard to attack the validity of pressure testing, create ways to pressure test your SD methods against resisting partners! Sparring is not limited to a boxing ring or to MMA rules, and it does not have to exclude weapons or multiple adversaries.

The MMA pressure testing method indeed started in sportive events, but IT DOES NOT HAVE TO END THERE.

 

[MJS]

Personally, I don´t even like the expression MMA. I train in Muay Thai and I have some significante judo experience, but I do not consider myself a MMA guy.

I believe the MMA practice, as espoused here, should be taken in context: IMHO, the best thing such a practice offers self defense minded practitioners is the pressure testing mentality, NOT the sportive events themselves. It forces people to actually think about the limitations of their techniques, and it forces people to create new methods to TEST them, not taking anything for granted.

Do you want to know if eye gouges are workable? Pressure test them, and stop complaining about their prohibition in MMA events! Put on some goggles, find some training partners, and PRACTICE them!

Instead of trying too hard to attack the validity of pressure testing, create ways to pressure test your SD methods against resisting partners! Sparring is not limited to a boxing ring or to MMA rules, and it does not have to exclude weapons or multiple adversaries.

The MMA pressure testing method indeed started in sportive events, but IT DOES NOT HAVE TO END THERE.

For the record, and speaking for myself here, as I don't know if this post was directed at me, or just to the thread in general, but I'm not against pressure testing. I feel that there is an importance to first learning the technique slowly, so that the fine points can be learned and understood, and then gradually adding in some resistance.

As for putting on the goggles and doing the eye jabs...I agree, absolutely! How do we pressure test breaks though? Basically, I get the impression that unless it can be tested, its useless, which is not the case. I've been put in enough locks to know that if the person applying them adds in a little more pressure, that my arm or wrist will break.

IMHO, this issue has seriously been beat like a dead horse. Topic after topic gets started, but in reality, its all the same. The only difference is that the title of the thread is different.

Everyone is going to train differently and have his/her own methods of training. What works for some may not work for others. IMHO, I feel that if we spent half the amount of time we spend pissing and moaning about who does what, how this one and that one trains, and put that time into some serious training, we'd all be a little better off!

Mike

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

1) For the record, and speaking for myself here, as I don't know if this post was directed at me, or just to the thread in general, but I'm not against pressure testing. I feel that there is an importance to first learning the technique slowly, so that the fine points can be learned and understood, and then gradually adding in some resistance.

2) As for putting on the goggles and doing the eye jabs...I agree, absolutely! How do we pressure test breaks though? Basically, I get the impression that unless it can be tested, its useless, which is not the case. I've been put in enough locks to know that if the person applying them adds in a little more pressure, that my arm or wrist will break.

3) IMHO, this issue has seriously been beat like a dead horse. Topic after topic gets started, but in reality, its all the same. The only difference is that the title of the thread is different.

4) Everyone is going to train differently and have his/her own methods of training. What works for some may not work for others. IMHO, I feel that if we spent half the amount of time we spend pissing and moaning about who does what, how this one and that one trains, and put that time into some serious training, we'd all be a little better off!

Mike

1) It was not directed at anyone in particular. And I agree with you.

2) Heh, well, I prefer to believe my arm will get ripped off its socket if I don´t tap.

3) Yup. Still, I see an error in communication on this issue - people from both sides of the fence will confuse the sportive side of MMA with the pressure testing mentality engendered by MMA. I tried to make the distinction clear with my post, I´m not sure if I succeeded or not.

4) But then we´d have to, like, work instead of posting!

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Last bar fight I saw, it was a 3 on 1. #2 and #3 didn't wait. Hard to make someone tap when his buddies are hitting you in the head with a bottle.

 

[MJS]

1) It was not directed at anyone in particular. And I agree with you.

Thank you for the clarification.

2) Heh, well, I prefer to believe my arm will get ripped off its socket if I don´t tap.

Exactly. But I get the impression from some that unless we actually go through with the break, it technically won't be pressure tested.

3) Yup. Still, I see an error in communication on this issue - people from both sides of the fence will confuse the sportive side of MMA with the pressure testing mentality engendered by MMA. I tried to make the distinction clear with my post, I´m not sure if I succeeded or not.

Basically, if someone is going to do it or whats to do it, they will. We can't force people to train a certain way, and IMO, rather than Police the Martial Arts world, we should focus on our training, instead of the training of others. People can preach about something until they're blue in the face, but if someone does not find value in what they're saying, there isn't much that can be done.

4) But then we´d have to, like, work instead of posting!

LOL! Hmm...work...post..work..post. I love my job but I love posting as well! I guess where I was going was...we can have productive discussions, but when they turn into flame wars, bash fests, etc., well, it makes for a less desireable posting session.

Thanks for the discussion.

Mike

 

[kickcatcher]

Last bar fight I saw, it was a 3 on 1. #2 and #3 didn't wait. Hard to make someone tap when his buddies are hitting you in the head with a bottle.

In much the same way as it's hard to hit someone when someone else is hitting you on the head with a bottle. I'm guessing you know more than you are letting show, but this sort of out of context comment cleverly avoids the real issues being discussed here. Like others you are confusing a sportive engagement with a training method/approach which is equally applicable to "the street".

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Well, what does Sporting have to do with Self Defense?

If I want to sport, I'll go play point paddy cake karate.

 

[kickcatcher]

Well, what does Sporting have to do with Self Defense?

Sport in itself is not the topic of the thread, Pressure Testing is. Pressure testing is a TRAINING METHOD. Whilst some combat sports can be looked upon as pressure tests in themselves, so can any form of hard sparring or similar alive training – everything is relative.

I take it you choose to confuse “sport” and “pressure testing”.

 

[RoninPimp]

When I read posts like this, I always wonder about a few things.

1) Why everyone thinks that they'll always be facing a trained fighter on the street.

2) That everyone they may have a confrontation with is going to be an 'expert' grappler.

3) That anyone who trains in MMA is going to be immune to an eye gouge, or any of those other supposed useless MA techniques. You know...the ones that can't be 'pressure tested'

Mike

-Where did I say any of that?

 

[MJS]

-Where did I say any of that?

Never said that you did. If you look back at some of the many related posts, you should see where I was going with this.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

Actually, kickcatcher, I think you are confusing Pressure Testing - a training method - as being primarily (and perhaps originally) an MMA training tool, which MMA is a sport (not an art), hence it is you who are really confusing sport with pressure testing.

 

[MSUTKD]

Edmund,

What does sport have to do with self defense? It lets you compete, albeit with rules, with another human being. It teaches you to prepare so that you can win. It teaches you that sometimes skill is not enough but that you have to reach inside for more. It shows us that to stay at the top you have to train even harder. Sport is a tool. How can anyone say that any study of martial arts is not physical? All of those things I listed can and should be used for self defense. It is not the answer but it is part of the solution.

ron

 

[Andrew Green]

3) That anyone who trains in MMA is going to be immune to an eye gouge, or any of those other supposed useless MA techniques. You know...the ones that can't be 'pressure tested'

Sure it can, strap on some safety goggles.

The effects of said techniques are not usually what comes under question, the ability to pull them off in a live environment is.

Same as if someone where to only practice throws on a willing opponent, never any randori. Put them next to a Judo fighter and the technique may be exactly the same, but the ability to execute it against a opponent that is fighting back won't be there.

 

[shesulsa]

Edmund,

What does sport have to do with self defense? It lets you compete, albeit with rules, with another human being. It teaches you to prepare so that you can win. It teaches you that sometimes skill is not enough but that you have to reach inside for more. It shows us that to stay at the top you have to train even harder. Sport is a tool. How can anyone say that any study of martial arts is not physical? All of those things I listed can and should be used for self defense. It is not the answer but it is part of the solution.

ron

A person does not need to compete to get that type of training.

 

[Andrew Green]

A person does not need to compete to get that type of training.

Depends on what you mean by "compete", in a sense we compete every class.