What skill level it takes to make a technique work

[skribs]

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

In striking, a beginner can often get a lucky hit on an advanced student. It is the style of martial arts that is most subject to beginners luck (when compared with grappling arts). That's not to say that the more advanced student is more likely to win, just that you won't have the complete dominance you could with grappling. If a beginner gets lucky in grappling, it will often just be to change position into a place they're even more confused about what to do. For example, I've passed the purple belt's guard to get into side control. From side control, I couldn't get to mount, but he could. (I'm also going to pretend that I actually got into side control, and that he didn't just let me do it).

Even in situations where your strikes do not connect or do not connect with enough force, it can be easy for a striker to figure out what went wrong, and get meaningful reps. If my technique isn't landing, I know my problem is accuracy or speed. If my techniques aren't having an effect on my opponent, I know my problem is placement or power. Striking is 99% non-contact, with contact only happening at the end of a technique. You are free to fully execute techniques miss or hit.

Compare this with grappling, which is 100% contact. The success or failure of a technique depends on my ability to successfully manipulate my opponent's body. What's that old adage about things you can control vs. things you can't? If your opponent is better at defending a technique than you are at executing it, you won't be able to use it. In many cases, you won't even be able to try it. If you are, it can be difficult to troubleshoot. Were you using it at the wrong time? In the wrong position? Did you have the wrong grip? Did you miss a step? Were you too tight or too loose? There's a number of variables that all could have blocked you from doing the technique correctly. And then you're stuck in mount and just trying to survive.

Then there's technical grappling. I separated this from competitive grappling, because there's a much higher focus on technical proficiency than on athleticism. In BJJ, my Professor has given a 60/40 rule; 60% technique, 40% strength. The strength tells the technique where to go. In Hapkido, if we used any amount of strength other than is required to move our own arms and legs, my Master would tell us we were trying too hard and we need to have better technique. These techniques focused very heavily on pressure points and joint alignment. In most cases, they were binary. Either you had the lock or you didn't.

A hip throw is going to work on someone less skilled in defending hip throws than the person executing them. If you're not very good at doing them, you leave a lot of openings to escape from it. But if your opponent doesn't know those openings, then they aren't going to take them, and the throw can be executed. However, if you're trying to get a wrist lock on your opponent, you have to know how to make it work, or they simply won't feel any pain to comply with. That's not to say that someone more skilled in wrist lock defense can't prevent you from succeeding, but rather that someone less skilled in applying wrist locks will have a much more difficult time with it than in the previous tiers (striking and competitive grappling).

 

[wab25]

I think its the same for all the arts. But, I also think that its not the skill in the technique that makes the difference. Its the setup and the recognition of what to do.

For any technique, you need to be in the right position and you need the other guy to be in the right position. In striking, I can move to an angle, where I can punch you in the jaw... once I am there, punching you in the jaw is very easy.... unless you change your position... This is the same for a hip throw, choke, escape, arm bar or kick. How you get the both of you into the correct positions respectively, for your technique... is the setup.

The next piece is recognition. This is where its easier for striking arts. The goal here is to strike the other guy. When you get to grappling, are you supposed to escape, reverse, choke, joint lock or strike? When you move to a new and awkward position, its only new and awkward to you, because you do not recognize what you are supposed to be doing there (see the above list....) and many times you do not know what that arm bar looks like.

My theory is that if you have the setup right (both people in the right position) and you recognize what you need to do... it does not take much skill to apply it.

In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

I suspect that this seems to be the case because not enough time was spent on the setup. Most of the time, the changes and adjustments that you make... are to the setup and positioning of you and the other guy, where the application of the lock is a simple push here.

All those fancy HKD locks and throws work in a bjj setting an MMA setting provided that you set them up and recognize what you have setup before the other guy can change the setup. The question is... can you set it up? And can you recognize what is setup for you now, in your current position?

 

[skribs]

For any technique, you need to be in the right position and you need the other guy to be in the right position. In striking, I can move to an angle, where I can punch you in the jaw... once I am there, punching you in the jaw is very easy.... unless you change your position... This is the same for a hip throw, choke, escape, arm bar or kick. How you get the both of you into the correct positions respectively, for your technique... is the setup.

Even if you're in the wrong position, you can still at least throw the punch. It will fail at the very end of the technique. If you miss something in a BJJ technique, it might stop you at step 3 out of 10. Instead of getting practice on 90% of the technique and seeing where it failed, you get practice on 30% of it.

All those fancy HKD locks and throws work in a bjj setting an MMA setting provided that you set them up and recognize what you have setup before the other guy can change the setup. The question is... can you set it up? And can you recognize what is setup for you now, in your current position?

I probably could've been a bit more clear in my post, that I was more referring to techniques instead of specific training methods. MMA and Muay Thai will both bridge the gap of striking and grappling, for example.

I would posit that the wrist locks in BJJ would likely have the same issue they do in HKD: you either have it or you don't. It's not about how good you have it. It's either good or its not.

 

[wab25]

Even if you're in the wrong position, you can still at least throw the punch.

I tried throwing a round house kick with the other guy in the wrong position, his elbow covering his ribs. You are right, I did get to practice 90% of the round house kick, only to have it fail at the end... but it caused my ankle to swell up like a softball, and quite a bit of sharp pain. I decided to pass on throwing strikes when either one of us is out of position....

I would posit that the wrist locks in BJJ would likely have the same issue they do in HKD: you either have it or you don't. It's not about how good you have it. It's either good or its not.

If both people are in the right position, making the wrist lock work only requires a push from the thumb and a pull from the pinky. If everyone is in the right place, it will work, every time, no matter what skill level.

When a wrist lock fails, it is because both people, and all their parts, are not in the right place. The setup is no good. If the setup is no good for a wrist lock... it is good for something else. If you recognize what that something else is, it should be easy to apply... until one of you changes the setup.

The skill is in the setup and in recognizing what is currently setup for you.

 

[drop bear]

Depends how you are doing those wrist locks.

Of you are trying to optimistically snatch them. Then yeah. If you are isolating the wrist and shutting down defences then no.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

MA has 2 parts,

- skill, and
- ability.

You can learn skill in school. You have to develop ability at home by yourself. You can learn skill fast., but you can only develop ability through time.

In striking art, you may have the skill to land a punch on your opponent's face. But if you don't have full body integration force, you may not be able to knock your opponent down.

In throwing art, you may be able to obtain a proper clinch. But if your head lock strength is not strong enough, or your leg lift strength is not strong enough, you cannot throw your oponent.

Since both the striking art and the throwing art require "ability" to make "skill" work, there is no difference there.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think its the same for all the arts. But, I also think that its not the skill in the technique that makes the difference. Its the setup and the recognition of what to do.

For any technique, you need to be in the right position and you need the other guy to be in the right position.

I was about to make a similar comment. There are indeed a series of several skills which when well employed make the execution of the technique much easier.

I put being able to recognize the threat or opportunity as the first skill. Second and third would be skillfully selecting the best tactic and positioning yourself for it. Next is timing the technique. Lastly is skill in the actual execution (power, speed, form). If all the other skills are in place even a mediocre technique can be at least partly successful since those other skills are force multipliers. If not, excellent execution skills become more vital to its success.

I'm looking at this from a striking viewpoint. Having little grappling experience, I'd hesitate to say it applies there as well. My guess though is this skill series would apply there too, but since one is in constant contact with the opponent, they might all be greatly compressed.

 

[Holmejr]

This happens in the FMA arts on a regular basis. Getting hit with sloppy strikes…just like in the street LOL! Damn, beginners, don’t they know the proper striking angles?…
Agreed though, the grappling arts are much less prone to errant choking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

The answer for all of these is the same. The skill level to be able to work a technique is directly based on your understanding of the technique which includes when and how to use it. For example.

Striking - you can make a technique work at any skill level.
This is not accurate. The techniques that you think can be done at any skill level are those that you probably have a good understanding of. For example, a jab is a basic skill set that doesn't require much in order to be able to use it. For the most part people will drill and use this technique hundreds of times in sparring. But things become more difficult as you get into more advance skills. The more advance a technique is the more understanding you'll need. Unfortunately with striking, the more advance the technique is, the less you are probably using it in training. Compare it to the practice time that a jab gets vs an advance technique that you don't bother to try to use during sparring.

Competitive Grappling and Technical Grappling
These two fall into the same category as striking in terms of being able to use them. If you don't understand the technique then it's going to be more difficult and sometimes impossible to do. Understanding the technique is key. The only way to gain true understanding of a technique is to use it during training / sparring.

The biggest difference between Striking and Grappling is.
1. Striking may not be able to use a lot of the techniques in training.
2. Many of those who do striking only use the techniques that they are comfortable with.
3. Many strikers think of sparring as winning or losing. Because of that they are not going to use a technique that may increase their chances of losing. This means they are not exploring and becoming better with an unfamiliar technique.
4. Grappling and BJJ does the opposite of #3. Techniques are tried over and over again through sparring until they can get it right. This is not true for many striking arts. Especially if the student isn't sparring to learn.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By the way. "Understanding a technique" does not mean that you know the name and what the technique is used for. "Understanding the technique" means that you know enough about it to develop the ability (like @Kung Fu Wang mentions) to actually use it. If you are capable of using a technique then you should be able to understand it enough to use it, so long as you practice to use it. Grapplers do a lot of "practice to use" aka application practice through sparring. Strikers often do not. It is possible to pick a random striking striking system in which people do not explore beyond the basics strikes and kicks during sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If my technique isn't landing, I know my problem is accuracy or speed. If my techniques aren't having an effect on my opponent, I know my problem is placement or power. Striking is 99% non-contact, with contact only happening at the end of a technique. You are free to fully execute techniques miss or hit.

Provided that a technique is functional in the first place.
If your technique isn't landing, it's because you do not understand enough about the technique to know when to use it.
If your technique doesn't have an effect on your opponent then you do not understand enough about the technique to be effective with it.
Striking is 99% non-contact. This is not true. Contact happens before and during a strike. Sometimes a strike will require that you parry or jam an opponent's guard before you use your striking technique will work.

A hip throw is going to work on someone less skilled in defending hip throws than the person executing them.

This is true for everything regardless of what you do. Those who are less skilled are less able to defend against someone who is skilled.. If you aren't skilled at applying a technique that you train, then it's like you aren't skilled at all (for using that technique in a fight.)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.

Hmm. I'm not sure that's correct. What do you mean by making a technique work? I can teach anyone to ball up their fist and hit a bag. Is that making the technique work?

I would consider making the technique work if you can apply it with bad intent in a stressed situation against a resisting opponent. That requires time and effort to absorb the techniques required for balance, stance, breathing, power, target, opportunity, distance, penetration, and speed.

 

[skribs]

Hmm. I'm not sure that's correct. What do you mean by making a technique work? I can teach anyone to ball up their fist and hit a bag. Is that making the technique work?

I would consider making the technique work if you can apply it with bad intent in a stressed situation against a resisting opponent. That requires time and effort to absorb the techniques required for balance, stance, breathing, power, target, opportunity, distance, penetration, and speed.

I'm not talking about making it work reliably. Just making it work intentionally.

It's much easier for a white belt in TKD to land a kick on a black belt, than it is for a white belt in BJJ to tap a purple belt, for example.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not talking about making it work reliably. Just making it work intentionally.

It's much easier for a white belt in TKD to land a kick on a black belt, than it is for a white belt in BJJ to tap a purple belt, for example.

Do you agree that in:

- striking art, if a kick cannot knock your opponent down, it's not a good kick.
- throwing art, if a throw cannot take your opponent down, it's not a good throw.

Many years ago in Taiwan, when a 8 steps praying mantis master sat on a chair and taught his students in the park, a Zimen guy bowed to him, stepped in, poked his finger tips on the PM master's chest, stepped back, bowed, and left. Later on he bragged about his skill that he could strike a PM master chest befor that master could block it. Someone asked him, "Did you knock down ,or hurt that PM master?" He could not answer that question.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not talking about making it work reliably. Just making it work intentionally.

It's much easier for a white belt in TKD to land a kick on a black belt, than it is for a white belt in BJJ to tap a purple belt, for example.

Apples and oranges. Getting a submission seems to me to be something more along the lines of punching or kicking someone hard enough to hurt them, not just land a punch.

I've certainly been hit by a white belt. Sometimes I've chosen to stand and take their punches for the purpose of instruction. I would not call that the equivalent of a submission.

More like a white belt in BJJ putting a purple belt in BJJ into a submission hold with the purple belt instructing them and permitting it to happen.

Looking back on my own time as a white belt, I recall distinctly not being able to land a hand or a foot on one of my instructors unless they allowed it to happen; and I was an adult in reasonable condition who had a minor history of fighting against people who didn't want to be arrested. In other words, I didn't totally suck as a fighter, and I could not hit them. At all. Maybe all white belts in TKD are much better than I was.

 

[Darren]

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

In striking, a beginner can often get a lucky hit on an advanced student. It is the style of martial arts that is most subject to beginners luck (when compared with grappling arts). That's not to say that the more advanced student is more likely to win, just that you won't have the complete dominance you could with grappling. If a beginner gets lucky in grappling, it will often just be to change position into a place they're even more confused about what to do. For example, I've passed the purple belt's guard to get into side control. From side control, I couldn't get to mount, but he could. (I'm also going to pretend that I actually got into side control, and that he didn't just let me do it).

Even in situations where your strikes do not connect or do not connect with enough force, it can be easy for a striker to figure out what went wrong, and get meaningful reps. If my technique isn't landing, I know my problem is accuracy or speed. If my techniques aren't having an effect on my opponent, I know my problem is placement or power. Striking is 99% non-contact, with contact only happening at the end of a technique. You are free to fully execute techniques miss or hit.

Compare this with grappling, which is 100% contact. The success or failure of a technique depends on my ability to successfully manipulate my opponent's body. What's that old adage about things you can control vs. things you can't? If your opponent is better at defending a technique than you are at executing it, you won't be able to use it. In many cases, you won't even be able to try it. If you are, it can be difficult to troubleshoot. Were you using it at the wrong time? In the wrong position? Did you have the wrong grip? Did you miss a step? Were you too tight or too loose? There's a number of variables that all could have blocked you from doing the technique correctly. And then you're stuck in mount and just trying to survive.

Then there's technical grappling. I separated this from competitive grappling, because there's a much higher focus on technical proficiency than on athleticism. In BJJ, my Professor has given a 60/40 rule; 60% technique, 40% strength. The strength tells the technique where to go. In Hapkido, if we used any amount of strength other than is required to move our own arms and legs, my Master would tell us we were trying too hard and we need to have better technique. These techniques focused very heavily on pressure points and joint alignment. In most cases, they were binary. Either you had the lock or you didn't.

A hip throw is going to work on someone less skilled in defending hip throws than the person executing them. If you're not very good at doing them, you leave a lot of openings to escape from it. But if your opponent doesn't know those openings, then they aren't going to take them, and the throw can be executed. However, if you're trying to get a wrist lock on your opponent, you have to know how to make it work, or they simply won't feel any pain to comply with. That's not to say that someone more skilled in wrist lock defense can't prevent you from succeeding, but rather that someone less skilled in applying wrist locks will have a much more difficult time with it than in the previous tiers (striking and competitive grappling).

In a wrist lock using footwork and pulling the enemy off his his balance while at the same time grabbing his wrist and going for the break will work from the front, if the wrist lock is from behind again using footwork plus body mass elbow him in the face, stomping on the foot to draw his attention, heel kick to the groin etc. all techniques do is teach ya how to hit from any angle, no technique is going to work on the street like it works in the dojo! Have not had much grabbling experience but it seems like crowding your enemy grabbing his clothing and using angles using leg sweeps you throw him on the ground and/or send his face into the ground. In BJJ only having had only 7 classes find my self on my back being pulled,torn,ripped,arm barred(but I do love it) the rolls are just great!!! Need more training in that to commit!!!

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

In striking, a beginner can often get a lucky hit on an advanced student. It is the style of martial arts that is most subject to beginners luck (when compared with grappling arts). That's not to say that the more advanced student is more likely to win, just that you won't have the complete dominance you could with grappling. If a beginner gets lucky in grappling, it will often just be to change position into a place they're even more confused about what to do. For example, I've passed the purple belt's guard to get into side control. From side control, I couldn't get to mount, but he could. (I'm also going to pretend that I actually got into side control, and that he didn't just let me do it).

Even in situations where your strikes do not connect or do not connect with enough force, it can be easy for a striker to figure out what went wrong, and get meaningful reps. If my technique isn't landing, I know my problem is accuracy or speed. If my techniques aren't having an effect on my opponent, I know my problem is placement or power. Striking is 99% non-contact, with contact only happening at the end of a technique. You are free to fully execute techniques miss or hit.

Compare this with grappling, which is 100% contact. The success or failure of a technique depends on my ability to successfully manipulate my opponent's body. What's that old adage about things you can control vs. things you can't? If your opponent is better at defending a technique than you are at executing it, you won't be able to use it. In many cases, you won't even be able to try it. If you are, it can be difficult to troubleshoot. Were you using it at the wrong time? In the wrong position? Did you have the wrong grip? Did you miss a step? Were you too tight or too loose? There's a number of variables that all could have blocked you from doing the technique correctly. And then you're stuck in mount and just trying to survive.

Then there's technical grappling. I separated this from competitive grappling, because there's a much higher focus on technical proficiency than on athleticism. In BJJ, my Professor has given a 60/40 rule; 60% technique, 40% strength. The strength tells the technique where to go. In Hapkido, if we used any amount of strength other than is required to move our own arms and legs, my Master would tell us we were trying too hard and we need to have better technique. These techniques focused very heavily on pressure points and joint alignment. In most cases, they were binary. Either you had the lock or you didn't.

A hip throw is going to work on someone less skilled in defending hip throws than the person executing them. If you're not very good at doing them, you leave a lot of openings to escape from it. But if your opponent doesn't know those openings, then they aren't going to take them, and the throw can be executed. However, if you're trying to get a wrist lock on your opponent, you have to know how to make it work, or they simply won't feel any pain to comply with. That's not to say that someone more skilled in wrist lock defense can't prevent you from succeeding, but rather that someone less skilled in applying wrist locks will have a much more difficult time with it than in the previous tiers (striking and competitive grappling).

 

[skribs]

Apples and oranges. Getting a submission seems to me to be something more along the lines of punching or kicking someone hard enough to hurt them, not just land a punch.

I've certainly been hit by a white belt. Sometimes I've chosen to stand and take their punches for the purpose of instruction. I would not call that the equivalent of a submission.

More like a white belt in BJJ putting a purple belt in BJJ into a submission hold with the purple belt instructing them and permitting it to happen.

Looking back on my own time as a white belt, I recall distinctly not being able to land a hand or a foot on one of my instructors unless they allowed it to happen; and I was an adult in reasonable condition who had a minor history of fighting against people who didn't want to be arrested. In other words, I didn't totally suck as a fighter, and I could not hit them. At all. Maybe all white belts in TKD are much better than I was.

Okay, you're more likely to get a KO as a beginner against an experienced fighter than you are to tap them. You're more likely to land a point as a white belt than pass guard.

 

[isshinryuronin]

BJJ and karate are two different animals. In BJJ it's not uncommon for a position to be held for some time so maybe only 4 - 7 techniques executed (though there is some tugging for position) in a minute. In fact, I've seen just one position held for over a minute.

In karate competition it's not uncommon for 10-20 techniques executed in that same minute. It's a much faster pace in a striking art than a grappling one. So, in that kind of flurry it's more likely a beginner's stray strike will land effectively than a BJJ beginner's submission move being set.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not talking about making it work reliably. Just making it work intentionally.

It's much easier for a white belt in TKD to land a kick on a black belt, than it is for a white belt in BJJ to tap a purple belt, for example.

I'm not sure that is a good comparison. A person who lands a strike on me isn't necessary in a better position for landing the strike. If you are doing point sparring then your statement would be true, but it's not necessarily true in fighting. If BJJ is anything like what I've been doing lately then you are using 100% of your muscle, its not an activity of tap the body to score the punch. If me and my MMA partner went with the with the same force in sparring then one or both of use is going to seriously get hurt.

When spar with striking my power output is about 30%. When I wrestle my output is 100% unless I'm holding position waiting for an opportunity to go on the offensive or to counter.

Apples and oranges. Getting a submission seems to me to be something more along the lines of punching or kicking someone hard enough to hurt them, not just land a punch.

Totally agree. There is a big gap between landing a strike and landing an effective one that causes damage.

Okay, you're more likely to get a KO as a beginner against an experienced fighter than you are to tap them. You're more likely to land a point as a white belt than pass guard.

I'm not sure about that either. As a beginner I had no ability to win let alone KO someone that had more fight experience. For example, You are a beginner and you fight an advance boxer. The only way you get a KO is if the boxer gets cocky and lets you hit him in the face as hard as you can and you still have to be effective enough to land a punch that is hard enough. If he fights you as his equal, then you will be lucky to last .

I don't think you have the same idea of "Experience Fighter" that I have. You'll land a punch but the KO is going to be hard to get. There are some TKD fighters out there that will knock your head off.

 

[JowGaWolf]

BJJ and karate are two different animals. In BJJ it's not uncommon for a position to be held for some time so maybe only 4 - 7 techniques executed (though there is some tugging for position) in a minute. In fact, I've seen just one position held for over a minute.

In karate competition it's not uncommon for 10-20 techniques executed in that same minute. It's a much faster pace in a striking art than a grappling one. So, in that kind of flurry it's more likely a beginner's stray strike will land effectively than a BJJ beginner's submission move being set.

Beginners vs experienced fighters. Do they land a punch, some did. But if it's this difficult for them to land one, Imagine how difficult it would be if for them to land a punch that is effective enough for him KO him if he's punching back.

Take an experienced Muay Thai fighter. Now it's even worse because kicking is allowed. Will a beginner land a punch? Most likely. Will a beginner KO the muay thai fighter not likely. Will that beginner walk with a limp after the first kick that lands on his beginner legs. It's almost a guarantee. lol.

I think when it comes to things like karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, TKD, etc. I think there is a high risk that people think they have more skill than they actually do. So they come off as an "Experienced TKD" based on a belt or point sparring and not based on trying to KO someone. Like in most competition there is rule that restricts use of full power.