Pressure points?

[Runs With Fire]

I an interested to know if you have ever had any instruction on anatomical pressure points from a legitimate combat perspective. Have you ever had training to any certifiable level through a recognizable authority in "western combat" usage; in other words "western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes?
I am looking for reputable resources on such matters.

 

[geezer]

Legitimate? Nope, can't help. The few bits of useful knowledge I've picked up in this are all came from illegitimate sources. Those guys could be real b-stards when it came to combat. They just knew how to cause pain.

Anyway, my general view is that the vital points that work in actual fighting against a resisting opponent are pretty well known and widely targeted.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of faith in esoteric pressure points, dim mak or that kind stuff. In fact I prefer the advice of the satirical fantasy writer Terry Pratchett. I believe it was a character in one of his books who said something to the effect that, "pressure points work great, ...if you apply enough pressure. Like, for example, dropping a ton of bricks on them".

BTW if anybody has those "legitimate sources" on pressure points, based on generally accepted modern medical knowledge, I'd also be interested.

 

[Mephisto]

I agree with geezer, pressure points aren't the "golden calf" many popular advertisements would have you believe. There was a time when I believed pressure points to be the ultimate in martial arts but the truth is they are used regularly by all systems without special attention being paid. Those ads that teach average guys to take down multiple "400lb gang bangers" are bs. Pressure points are an interesting study in martial arts but extensive study doesn't seem to yield guaranteed results. Boxing targets pressure points as does any combative system. The chin is a pp, a groing shot? pp! eye gouge? pp! neck? temple? throat? all are pps. The effective ones are no secret to martial artists. There aren't any secret areas to hit that will ko 100% of opponents, and no one is going to idly sit and let you hit them. I've trained with some japanese jujutsu guys that involve pressure points in depth in their curriculum and I see them regularly as they train FMA with me as well. At best many of the pp can hurt or be uncomfortable in a compliant situation but are a far cry from being fight enders. They might have value for LEO or those who need to control people but for your average person getting attacked on the streets, hunting elusive pressure points is a bad idea. The easiest and simplest solution is to hit the head. An attacker will do this and you can too. Doctors, massage therapists, and those with advanced anatomical knowledge haven't proven to be any better at fighting than a world class competitor. It's romantic idea to beat the brutish fighter with superior knowledge, but brains will only get you so far without the conditioning and hard work to make it useful.

In the radiologic field highly trained doctors who have in depth knowledge of human anatomy only preform lumbar punctures or "spinal taps" as they are more commonly known under x-ray guidance. If a highly trained physician won't bet his career under hitting a specific point without x-ray guidance I wouldn't bet my life on some random guy's untested "knowledge" of pressure points.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know. Something something face crush.

 

[K-man]

I have been training with pressure points for years but have no 'formal' training. I think of them more as 'vital' points. Rather than thinking of them as the be all and end all, I prefer to think of them as enhancers. If you are hitting someone hard enough on the jaw it is likely to cause damage. If you do the same strike at the correct angle and direction you will get a better effect and with less power needed. If you swing wildly it is hit and miss. If you aim for a point there's a fair chance you will hit it. These points are not small. Anywhere near the point does the job in most cases. Other points can be used to control and others to achieve a release.

There is a lot of really good material available to study vital points but there are also a fair number of practitioners whose ability I would question. Caveat Emptor!

 

[Dirty Dog]

What the hell is ""western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes"???

 

[Transk53]

What the hell is ""western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes"???

Wonder if the OP means something like this.

Human-Based Combat Trauma Training Methods Physicians Committee

 

[BeeBrian]

Legitimate? Nope, can't help. The few bits of useful knowledge I've picked up in this are all came from illegitimate sources. Those guys could be real b-stards when it came to combat. They just knew how to cause pain.

Anyway, my general view is that the vital points that work in actual fighting against a resisting opponent are pretty well known and widely targeted.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of faith in esoteric pressure points, dim mak or that kind stuff. In fact I prefer the advice of the satirical fantasy writer Terry Pratchett. I believe it was a character in one of his books who said something to the effect that, "pressure points work great, ...if you apply enough pressure. Like, for example, dropping a ton of bricks on them".

BTW if anybody has those "legitimate sources" on pressure points, based on generally accepted modern medical knowledge, I'd also be interested.

One of my biggest sources of combat science are professional athletes who compete in full-contact combat sports. They are a great source, no argument there.

I also had a friend who has never competed in professional martial arts, but lays his credibility on the fact that he's been in 600 fights thoughout his life, was a pro powerlifter with a 720-pound raw squat, was a collegiate wrestler, and STILL pushes himself to learn new things considering how he signed up for Judo lessons a few months ago.

He SWORE by dim mak and went so far as saying that if one is trained in dim mak, he or she wouldn't need to learn any other martial art. Even coming from him, it is hard to believe. But on top of his combat experience, he was a very educated man with a Master's degree. Granted, his degree was Psychology, so he may have been using his psychological skills to convince me some ********, but I don't think that was the case. He is a good guy with a cool family life on top of a noble job.

I'll look into dim mak and see what I can find...

 

[tshadowchaser]

I had an instructor that could cause your arm to go almost "dead" for a brief period of time by hitting pressure points in it. He also like to use a couple in the leg to drop people. Most of the time he caused sever pain and some people would just look strangely at him as if his strikes had no affect.
I have talk with a couple of physicians about the effect of slow vs. quick hard pressure applied to certain nerve clusters and received good knowledgeable information as to the effects and why.
Do I think they are what most people claim NO do I think they work in some cases and have a use YES

 

[Mephisto]

One of my biggest sources of combat science are professional athletes who compete in full-contact combat sports. They are a great source, no argument there.

I also had a friend who has never competed in professional martial arts, but lays his credibility on the fact that he's been in 600 fights thoughout his life, was a pro powerlifter with a 720-pound raw squat, was a collegiate wrestler, and STILL pushes himself to learn new things considering how he signed up for Judo lessons a few months ago.

He SWORE by dim mak and went so far as saying that if one is trained in dim mak, he or she wouldn't need to learn any other martial art. Even coming from him, it is hard to believe. But on top of his combat experience, he was a very educated man with a Master's degree. Granted, his degree was Psychology, so he may have been using his psychological skills to convince me some ********, but I don't think that was the case. He is a good guy with a cool family life on top of a noble job.

I'll look into dim mak and see what I can find...

With a 720lb raw squat and over 600 street fights? Who is this guy Snake Plisken? Anything that guy trains is gonna be surprisingly effective. I'm pretty sure he could just run around and windmill his arms and he'd have an unstoppable system.

 

[Buka]

Bee, if he "lays his credibility on the fact that he's been in 600 fights throughout his life and swears by Dim Mak" that pretty much says it all.

Please don't buy a time share from this fella.

 

[Tez3]

Touch of Death - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[LibbyW]

This is realz right?

Or have I been led to believe that MA in movies isn't completely 100% factually accurate
L

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are absolutely pressure points that work. They're not the Unstoppable Insta-Death nonsense Hollywood shows, but they are effective. There's nothing mystical about them. Find a place where there is a nerve bundle close to the skin, with something rigid behind it. Poke, smack, rub or pinch that nerve against the bone behind it. It'll hurt. A lot.

 

[oftheherd1]

There are absolutely pressure points that work. They're not the Unstoppable Insta-Death nonsense Hollywood shows, but they are effective. There's nothing mystical about them. Find a place where there is a nerve bundle close to the skin, with something rigid behind it. Poke, smack, rub or pinch that nerve against the bone behind it. It'll hurt. A lot.

Pretty much so. In my experience, when used correctly on a susceptible person, they work very well to cause extreme pain. That will cause the opponent to lose focus and allow easy strikes or grapples against him. However, I have also found there are people who are seemingly not susceptible to all pressure points. They don't feel pain on all points, so beware. Or I am not as good as the masters (very probable).

There are other pressure points that do strange things to the body. Again, not the normal Hollywood type. But things that seem to cause disruptions to normal body functions, causing loss of muscle use. Just like those against nerves along bones, they do wear off rather than instantly kill.

Some Okinawan arts teach pressure points, as does Hapkido. In the Hapkido I learned, we learned some pressure points at the colored belt level, and continued learning them at the various black belt levels. I have heard of an art in Japan that worked exclusively with pressure points, but never heard a name for it nor saw it myself, so it may be just myth.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Way back when I first started in the Bujinkan, I had a training partner who was a cop and regularly used pressure points on suspects who were resisting being cuffed to facilitate their cooperation. I practiced them for a while, and what I found were very inconsistent results. I might demonstrate a certain pressure point on a beefy 200 pound guy and have him flop to the ground in pain. Then I'd try the same move on a 110 pound woman who would shrug and ask what the big deal was, even when I tried applying way more force than I had needed for the big guy.

I've also found that pain based attacks may seem to work very well in casual practice, but end up being completely ineffective in a real fight or competition. Adrenaline is a hell of a pain suppressant.

There are targets on the body which are very effective to strike, but I'm not sure whether you would call them "pressure points". Strikes to the eyes, throat, neck, base of the skull, solar plexus, liver, and groin can all be fight enders. ("Can" is the operative word. None of them - even the eyes and groin - are automatic "I win" buttons.)

 

[BeeBrian]

There are absolutely pressure points that work. They're not the Unstoppable Insta-Death nonsense Hollywood shows, but they are effective. There's nothing mystical about them. Find a place where there is a nerve bundle close to the skin, with something rigid behind it. Poke, smack, rub or pinch that nerve against the bone behind it. It'll hurt. A lot.

Don't forget about exposed organs. Such as your left testicle.

And also your right testicle.

 

[Tez3]

Don't forget about exposed organs. Such as your left testicle.

And also your right testicle.

I've seen chaps take a big thump to their family jewels and carry on fighting, I wouldn't bank on strikes there incapacitating someone. Doesn't work on me for sure.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Pretty much so. In my experience, when used correctly on a susceptible person, they work very well to cause extreme pain. That will cause the opponent to lose focus and allow easy strikes or grapples against him. However, I have also found there are people who are seemingly not susceptible to all pressure points. They don't feel pain on all points, so beware. Or I am not as good as the masters (very probable).

It's my experience that everybody is immune to some pressure points, but nobody is immune to all of them. So to use them effectively, you'll need a lot of options. Which means a lot of time training. Which means this is not something for the "casual" student.

There are other pressure points that do strange things to the body. Again, not the normal Hollywood type. But things that seem to cause disruptions to normal body functions, causing loss of muscle use. Just like those against nerves along bones, they do wear off rather than instantly kill.

Oh sure. There are a couple places above the shoulders that result in either a brief period of unconsciousness or at least severe imbalance and a giant head rush that make it impossible to do anything. But again, there's nothing mystical about them. Smack someone at the nerve plexus that controls the carotid sinus and a large portion of the blood flow to the brain stops. That makes it difficult to stay awake..

Way back when I first started in the Bujinkan, I had a training partner who was a cop and regularly used pressure points on suspects who were resisting being cuffed to facilitate their cooperation. I practiced them for a while, and what I found were very inconsistent results. I might demonstrate a certain pressure point on a beefy 200 pound guy and have him flop to the ground in pain. Then I'd try the same move on a 110 pound woman who would shrug and ask what the big deal was, even when I tried applying way more force than I had needed for the big guy.

Yup. Minor variations in anatomy move the nerve plexus slightly.

I've also found that pain based attacks may seem to work very well in casual practice, but end up being completely ineffective in a real fight or competition. Adrenaline is a hell of a pain suppressant.

More practice, dude... I use them all the time, quite effectively, on drunks, angry psych patients, tweakers, and security officers who doubt that pressure points work.

Don't forget about exposed organs. Such as your left testicle.

And also your right testicle.

Contrary to Hollywood and the drauma queens in on TV, this is not really all that effective. I've been kicked in the groin a number of times. It hurts. So does being punched in the nose. But it doesn't incapacitate me at all. Pisses me off, though...

 

[BeeBrian]

Contrary to Hollywood and the drauma queens in on TV, this is not really all that effective. I've been kicked in the groin a number of times. It hurts. So does being punched in the nose. But it doesn't incapacitate me at all. Pisses me off, though...

I find this hard to believe considering how guys like Cro Cop needed to take a break after getting hit by their foes. And these guys were wearing cups. And they were pros who did what they did for a living.

I've seen dudes in rel life as well who get hit in the nuts.