Pressure Point Controvsery

gpseymour

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That's unfortunate he broke his hand. I was asking because wrist locks have fine details that makes them hurt so much more. That's why I asked MA what locks in particular has he experienced and what the person's background was that applied them

I agree that some people are more flexible and the effectiveness varies from person to person. But have you encountered people that aren't responsive to a z-lock or Nikyo lock? Im not suggesting it's impossible, just curious.
In this guy's case, it wasn't even flexibility. He just never felt the pain - it was odd. He was somewhat resistant to what you're calling a z-lock (for us, "First Wrist Technique" - quite descriptive, eh?), because he had that lack of pain response and was relatively flexible AND had very strong joints. If you got it on all the way, you had him. A bit off, and he could press out. I've never met anyone else with that combination, nor anyone else who could press out of that lock so easily, so I'll call him an outlier. I have met a few who it was difficult to get on (to an extent that I simply would choose something different), because their joints were so strong and tight (and their hands were big). If it got on 50% they were done, but getting even to that point was less dependable than with most people, unless I caught them in a really loose transition.
 

punisher73

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Every course I have been on where the instructor has talked about pressure points I have asked the same question. Do they work if someone has lots of alcohol/drugs/adrenaline in their system. I haven't l had a straight answer yet.

I am an instructor in PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics), of which pressure points are a big component. One of the things that I teach is that nothing in law enforcement is 100% effective 100% of the time. Second, there are certain points that are more effective in "pain compliance" when the person is sober and not actively fighting you (this is where most people complain the "system doesn't work" because they are using touch pressure to control a higher level of force it wasn't designed for. Lastly, in regards to your question specifically. Think of pressure points on a "bell curve"

2014-10-03-blogbellcurve.png

Pressure points will work fairly reliably for about 70% of the population. About 15% of the population, you are going to get a REALLY significant response to them (we have all met the person in class who is barely struck and they complain on how hard you are hitting them). Then, you will have the 15% of the population that will have little to no response to them. This would include people who are high on adrenaline, drunk/high on a controlled substance, or just have a higher pain tolerance and don't respond as much. So, about 85% of people you would use pressure/pain points on, you will get a good response. But, if we think about most of the people we are going to be dealing with in a self-defense situation, we are more likely to be dealing with that other 15% who might not respond.

I hope that answers it without sounding like I'm skirting the issue, but it's the best I have to explain it and try to put some numbers on it.

The other thing I would point out is that some people teach "dim mak" solely based on acupuncture points and meridian theory. Others use it and also include the other areas that the Chinese taught. You have nerve points, muscle points, organ shots, bone shots, etc. Basically, they were attacking all of the body's weak points and it was all inclusive.
 
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frank raud

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. As am example I recently saw a krav maga demo in Bucharest. Good stuff, but in several instances an elbow dislocate was possible at TW-11. But never used.

:)
Dislocating elbows with a pressure point. I guess it's safe to assume this isn't done with a light touch.
 

drop bear

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I am an instructor in PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics), of which pressure points are a big component. One of the things that I teach is that nothing in law enforcement is 100% effective 100% of the time. Second, there are certain points that are more effective in "pain compliance" when the person is sober and not actively fighting you (this is where most people complain the "system doesn't work" because they are using touch pressure to control a higher level of force it wasn't designed for. Lastly, in regards to your question specifically. Think of pressure points on a "bell curve"

2014-10-03-blogbellcurve.png

Pressure points will work fairly reliably for about 70% of the population. About 15% of the population, you are going to get a REALLY significant response to them (we have all met the person in class who is barely struck and they complain on how hard you are hitting them). Then, you will have the 15% of the population that will have little to no response to them. This would include people who are high on adrenaline, drunk/high on a controlled substance, or just have a higher pain tolerance and don't respond as much. So, about 85% of people you would use pressure/pain points on, you will get a good response. But, if we think about most of the people we are going to be dealing with in a self-defense situation, we are more likely to be dealing with that other 15% who might not respond.

I hope that answers it without sounding like I'm skirting the issue, but it's the best I have to explain it and try to put some numbers on it.

The other thing I would point out is that some people teach "dim mak" solely based on acupuncture points and meridian theory. Others use it and also include the other areas that the Chinese taught. You have nerve points, muscle points, organ shots, bone shots, etc. Basically, they were attacking all of the body's weak points and it was all inclusive.

What is the source for those percentages.
 

JR 137

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When I was wrestling, my favorite pinning combination was a double arm bar stack. Here’s a visual:

You’d go from here
F1C6B864-402F-4037-B05A-766779583A16.jpeg


And circle around their head to here
4F4AFA1E-1144-4B09-841D-AD88111D3999.jpeg


There was one guy who I wrestled a few times who was impossible to do this to. He’d do this weird thing where his arms would go totally limp and bend an odd way, and he’d slip his arms out before I could even get a position in the first pic. It freaked everyone out. Stupid me had to keep trying it every time I wrestled him, as he wasn’t very good and I had to prove to myself that I could do that to anyone. I beat him every time, but never the way I wanted to.

I think I liked it so much because once you get the arms barred up, it’s pretty much impossible to get out, it hurts like hell, and it’s just flat out demoralizing.
 

JR 137

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Dislocating elbows with a pressure point. I guess it's safe to assume this isn't done with a light touch.
If you activate the golgi tendon apparatus in the triceps tendon, it’s not as hard as it would seem. Definitely not light touch, but not all out forcefully smashing either.
 

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What is the source for those percentages.
those % are one standard deviation from the mean on a bell curve, actually 66% from memory? . Those % certainly apply to a lot of human attributes, height shoe,size intelligence etal. I have no idea if they apply to pressure points and I'm pretty sure no one else does either?
 

frank raud

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If you activate the golgi tendon apparatus in the triceps tendon, it’s not as hard as it would seem. Definitely not light touch, but not all out forcefully smashing either.
If you are hitting hard enough to dislocate an elbow, I think most people would agree you have moved beyond the pressure point realm, and into simple physics. You could hit higher up on the tricep and have the same effect. You could hit below the elbow joint and have the same effect. The Golgi tendon is not the relevant factor here, leverage is. If the arm is not supported, you may bruise it, but the chance of it breaking or dislocating is slim. If the arm is supported(held by your non-striking hand or leaning off a curb) the chance of it breaking dramatically increases.
 

JR 137

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If you are hitting hard enough to dislocate an elbow, I think most people would agree you have moved beyond the pressure point realm, and into simple physics. You could hit higher up on the tricep and have the same effect. You could hit below the elbow joint and have the same effect. The Golgi tendon is not the relevant factor here, leverage is. If the arm is not supported, you may bruise it, but the chance of it breaking or dislocating is slim. If the arm is supported(held by your non-striking hand or leaning off a curb) the chance of it breaking dramatically increases.
I’m not talking about hitting/striking the golgi tendon apparatus; punching/chopping, etc. won’t activate it. Pressure and/tension activates it.

Think of a high block in traditional karate. My chambered hand is holding the attacker’s wrist, palm-up. My blocking arm goes right above the elbow, and as I bring my arm up like in the block, I also roll my forearm against the tendon.

This will take far less force for me to hyperextend the elbow, causing dislocation, than if I didn’t roll my forearm against the tricep tendon. When the GTO is activated, the muscle relaxes. The GTO senses too much tension, and relaxes the muscle to prevent it from being torn.

Hard to effectively put into words, easy to demonstrate.

As an athletic trainer, I manipulated GTOs in a few muscles to temporarily increase range of motion. Works quite well when done right.
 

frank raud

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I’m not talking about hitting/striking the golgi tendon apparatus; punching/chopping, etc. won’t activate it. Pressure and/tension activates it.

Think of a high block in traditional karate. My chambered hand is holding the attacker’s wrist, palm-up. My blocking arm goes right above the elbow, and as I bring my arm up like in the block, I also roll my forearm against the tendon.

This will take far less force for me to hyperextend the elbow, causing dislocation, than if I didn’t roll my forearm against the tricep tendon. When the GTO is activated, the muscle relaxes. The GTO senses too much tension, and relaxes the muscle to prevent it from being torn.

Hard to effectively put into words, easy to demonstrate.

As an athletic trainer, I manipulated GTOs in a few muscles to temporarily increase range of motion. Works quite well when done right.
Is that something you could reliably repeat against an actively resisting opponent? Or only on a relaxed cooperative client?
 

punisher73

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What is the source for those percentages.

An extrapolation of the scientific data that all measurable human qualities fall on that bell curve (height, weight, IQ, etc.) To my knowledge there wouldn't really be a way to measure it 100% accurately, but it gives you a baseline to work with when teaching pressure points.

From my 20+ years of experience teaching and using pressure points in law enforcement/corrections, it seems to be fairly representative of what I have encountered.

As they say in NLP, "the map is not the territory". I find that it is a useful way to represent the reason "why" you get the results that you do and an idea of some percentages, which while they may be off slightly, are still close enough to illustrate the point.
 

JR 137

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Is that something you could reliably repeat against an actively resisting opponent? Or only on a relaxed cooperative client?
Here’s what I’m talking about...
BB9D2FA8-1BE1-4022-A697-92505747210B.jpeg

Except switch hands, so his arm under the opponent’s elbow is controlling the wrist, and his opposite arm is against the opponent’s tricep.

Either way, if he rolls that forearm at the tricep tendon (roll toward himself) it’ll relax the tricep muscle, making dislocation easier.

Same can be done here...
651C062A-187E-4946-B42A-A160CA78709E.jpeg

Roll the forearm towards himself.

This isn’t a mystical thing. It’s human physiology. I didn’t learn about GTOs in MA (although George Dillman mentions it and butchers it a bit); I learned it in my Sports Medicine and human physiology classes. I have used it during practing joint locks, but I haven’t used it against a 100% resisting MA partner. I used it a few times (manipulating the tendon, but not like the pics) when I coached wrestling. I didn’t go far with it, but just far enough to get a reaction. Guys looked at me like “what the hell did you do?”

It’s not something to base the entire joint lock around. The joint lock should work without it. It just makes it easier. It could be make or break (no pun intended) if it was a 100 lb woman applying an elbow lock on a 200 lb muscular man. But she should have the leverage right to get compliance without it.
 

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those % are one standard deviation from the mean on a bell curve, actually 66% from memory? . Those % certainly apply to a lot of human attributes, height shoe,size intelligence etal. I have no idea if they apply to pressure points and I'm pretty sure no one else does either?

So sex panther basically.
images
 

drop bear

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An extrapolation of the scientific data that all measurable human qualities fall on that bell curve (height, weight, IQ, etc.) To my knowledge there wouldn't really be a way to measure it 100% accurately, but it gives you a baseline to work with when teaching pressure points.

From my 20+ years of experience teaching and using pressure points in law enforcement/corrections, it seems to be fairly representative of what I have encountered.

As they say in NLP, "the map is not the territory". I find that it is a useful way to represent the reason "why" you get the results that you do and an idea of some percentages, which while they may be off slightly, are still close enough to illustrate the point.

Is that teaching people plus fighting people though? From my experience a pressure point works a lot better on a guy who doesn't want to beat you to death.
 

drop bear

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When I was wrestling, my favorite pinning combination was a double arm bar stack. Here’s a visual:

You’d go from here
View attachment 21106

And circle around their head to here
View attachment 21107

There was one guy who I wrestled a few times who was impossible to do this to. He’d do this weird thing where his arms would go totally limp and bend an odd way, and he’d slip his arms out before I could even get a position in the first pic. It freaked everyone out. Stupid me had to keep trying it every time I wrestled him, as he wasn’t very good and I had to prove to myself that I could do that to anyone. I beat him every time, but never the way I wanted to.

I think I liked it so much because once you get the arms barred up, it’s pretty much impossible to get out, it hurts like hell, and it’s just flat out demoralizing.

There is a stranding sort of version of that I used a bit for crowd control. Good for girls because you dont touch them where you shouldn't.

The stick trick.


Saw a girl get out of handcuffs that way. Just vertically up from the back.
 

drop bear

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If you are hitting hard enough to dislocate an elbow, I think most people would agree you have moved beyond the pressure point realm, and into simple physics. You could hit higher up on the tricep and have the same effect. You could hit below the elbow joint and have the same effect. The Golgi tendon is not the relevant factor here, leverage is. If the arm is not supported, you may bruise it, but the chance of it breaking or dislocating is slim. If the arm is supported(held by your non-striking hand or leaning off a curb) the chance of it breaking dramatically increases.

I think pressure points work like knee on belly. You use them to grind them up while you work for so ething else.


By the way if i just got a lot of self defence guys who did not know the move, and sat knee on belly they would sub straight out and think it was a pressure point in its own right.
 

JR 137

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I think pressure points work like knee on belly. You use them to grind them up while you work for so ething else.


By the way if i just got a lot of self defence guys who did not know the move, and sat knee on belly they would sub straight out and think it was a pressure point in its own right.
I did some pressure point stuff in wrestling.

Digging my knuckles into the top of the hand (opposite the palm) when they hands their hands locked helped break their grip.

Digging my chin into their biceps tendon at the shoulder helped me get their shoulder to the mat for a pin.

Pushing the curve of my forehead into their temple created enough space in a tie up for a duck-under.

Digging my knuckles into their ribs to create space for me to bridge and roll out when I was in my back.

They certainly weren’t moved in and of themselves, but they gave me that extra little bit to get me what I needed.

Then there’s stuff like kidney shots, liver shots, carotid sinus, kneeing the tailbone, charley horse to the outside of the thigh, squeezing the thigh right near the kneecap, etc. that cause more pain than they should for the amount of force applied.

Call them pressure points or whatever else you want. They work. Not all of them are fight enders, but they work.
 

JR 137

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There is a stranding sort of version of that I used a bit for crowd control. Good for girls because you dont touch them where you shouldn't.

The stick trick.


Saw a girl get out of handcuffs that way. Just vertically up from the back.
That’s what that guy did! Every f’in time I barred him up! I’d get tired of it near the end of the first period and throw a half-nelson. Pin. Every time.

Edit: We all tried it in practice. No one could do it.
 

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