Pressure Point Controvsery

Dirty Dog

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View attachment 21075
Here's a fractured Fibula
One of my students. Walked around for 3 days thinking he had a badly bruised leg from a hard low kick.

The fibula isn't really weight bearing during normal walking, so I've seen people walk on those kinds of fractures for days. I've seen healed fibula fractures on X-Rays and asked people about them only to find out they never knew they had broken it.
A tibial fracture at the same location can be ambulatory, depending in large part on the footwear. If you're wearing boots that support the ankle, they will act as a splint.
 

CB Jones

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couldn’t imagine someone walking on that same fracture in the tibia though (the bone right next to it), regardless of how numb they were

Thing to realize is with PCP....its not just numb.....there is zero feeling at all....nothing.

How it was explained to me.....if it weren't cor the hallucinations you perform open heart surgery on someone on PCP while having a conversation with them.
 

MA_Student

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I have a question for the teachers &/or more experienced individuals: Do pressure points work in real fights?

Why I ask, is because of it's articulate nature. If you miss a pressure point by a millimeter or even less, then its usefulness erodes.

Is it not difficult to apply them when you are under pressure? :eek::facepalm:
Yeah sure they work but I think it's pretty much impossible to apply on when someone's flying in with punches trying to take your head off. Punching the attacker in the face has a larger margin for error
 

MA_Student

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Personally I don't believe there's anything wrong with learning pressure point stuff it's cool to learn but there's no way in hell I'd ever try to use one in a fight and I don't think there's many who would because frankly not every pressure point works on different people. Heck even things like wrist locks don't work 100% of the time I can take wrist locks pretty well it's a running joke at my school they do hurt and I feel it a little but it doesn't bother me and it's the same with anything those kind of things would take a lot of effort to pull off in reality and if it didnt work there you're in serious trouble
 

drop bear

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It comes back to this same basic idea. You have to be able to fight first. So if I am trading strikes with a guy and he can punch me in the face he will win the contest of pressure points.

This is because the face punching pressure point is probably the most effective one.

As with a lot of these techniques people start functionally striking like goobers. And for no good reason. Stand straight down the center like a block of wood and dead arm guys.
 

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Yeah sure they work but I think it's pretty much impossible to apply on when someone's flying in with punches trying to take your head off. Punching the attacker in the face has a larger margin for error
In all the time I've spent training, sparring, fighting, I've only experienced what I would call a pressure point result twice, both tot he same area of the opponent. I don't even know if it really counts as an actual "pressure point" as such are defined by the people who regularly train this sort of thing, which I don't... unless you consider hapkido/aikijujutsu/aikido locking techniques as forms of PP stuff.

Two different times on two different guys, I've gotten a weird, glazed-over and crumpledown response from a clean shot tot he guy's left temple area. Once with a ridgehand strike that I really didn't think had much behind it... got the guy right over the temple and he sort of sat down, then fell over and laid there like a fish out of water, gasping. Freaked me out, I have to say.

Same effect a few years later, caught a guy right int he temple with a round kick, just a front leg, up and snap-out thing, Whop! Same exact result... crumple down tot he floor, system reboot... it was very weird and eerire, both times. I did Not care for it.

I mean, blast a guy in the gut, he goes "Whoof!" and crumples around the foot, sure. Get a good head shot, and you ring the bell. But that off-switch thing? It proved it to me that it was actually there, somewhere, though in all this training time I've only managed to find it twice.
 

MA_Student

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In all the time I've spent training, sparring, fighting, I've only experienced what I would call a pressure point result twice, both tot he same area of the opponent. I don't even know if it really counts as an actual "pressure point" as such are defined by the people who regularly train this sort of thing, which I don't... unless you consider hapkido/aikijujutsu/aikido locking techniques as forms of PP stuff.

Two different times on two different guys, I've gotten a weird, glazed-over and crumpledown response from a clean shot tot he guy's left temple area. Once with a ridgehand strike that I really didn't think had much behind it... got the guy right over the temple and he sort of sat down, then fell over and laid there like a fish out of water, gasping. Freaked me out, I have to say.

Same effect a few years later, caught a guy right int he temple with a round kick, just a front leg, up and snap-out thing, Whop! Same exact result... crumple down tot he floor, system reboot... it was very weird and eerire, both times. I did Not care for it.

I mean, blast a guy in the gut, he goes "Whoof!" and crumples around the foot, sure. Get a good head shot, and you ring the bell. But that off-switch thing? It proved it to me that it was actually there, somewhere, though in all this training time I've only managed to find it twice.
Doesn't sound like a pressure point to me sounds like he just got knocked out
 

Anarax

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Heck even things like wrist locks don't work 100% of the time
No technique does
I can take wrist locks pretty well it's a running joke at my school they do hurt and I feel it a little but it doesn't bother me
Are they being applied properly? Is it the common fingers towards the forearm lock? Or are they applying it at an angle or applying z-locks. People train their whole lives in systems like aikido or chin-na and never develop an immunity to wrist locks.
 

drop bear

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No technique does

Are they being applied properly? Is it the common fingers towards the forearm lock? Or are they applying it at an angle or applying z-locks. People train their whole lives in systems like aikido or chin-na and never develop an immunity to wrist locks.

I have trained with some people who seem to have an immunity. I stop before I think I am going to break something. So I don't know if I just cranked it to death they would be phased. But they don't seem to be hurt by them.
 

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I have trained with some people who seem to have an immunity. I stop before I think I am going to break something. So I don't know if I just cranked it to death they would be phased. But they don't seem to be hurt by them.

I've got a young lady who is immune. She can literally lay her hand flat on her forearm. Creeps me out.
 

gpseymour

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I have trained with some people who seem to have an immunity. I stop before I think I am going to break something. So I don't know if I just cranked it to death they would be phased. But they don't seem to be hurt by them.
I can agree with that. I trained beside someone who didn't feel them. He actually got his hand broken because he wasn't paying attention with a more junior student who was full of testosterone and certain his would work.
 

gpseymour

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I've got a young lady who is immune. She can literally lay her hand flat on her forearm. Creeps me out.
I haven't seen that, but I've trained with a few people whose elbows went a lot farther than "they should". Creeped me out every time I applied any kind of arm bar.
 

MA_Student

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No technique does

Are they being applied properly? Is it the common fingers towards the forearm lock? Or are they applying it at an angle or applying z-locks. People train their whole lives in systems like aikido or chin-na and never develop an immunity to wrist locks.
A punch has a lot more chance of a higher success rate than a pressure point.

You can't develop an immunity some people just have it. It's not really something you can train
 

Dirty Dog

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I haven't seen that, but I've trained with a few people whose elbows went a lot farther than "they should". Creeped me out every time I applied any kind of arm bar.

I used to work with a nurse who had double jointed elbows. Creepy as all hell.
 

Anarax

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A punch has a lot more chance of a higher success rate than a pressure point.

You can't develop an immunity some people just have it. It's not really something you can train

I wasn't referring to pressure points, I was referring to wrist locks.

What wrist locks are being done to you?
 

Anarax

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I have trained with some people who seem to have an immunity. I stop before I think I am going to break something. So I don't know if I just cranked it to death they would be phased. But they don't seem to be hurt by them.

I can understand that, the pain isn't there but the break will still happen if the appropriate amount of force is applied
 

Anarax

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I can agree with that. I trained beside someone who didn't feel them. He actually got his hand broken because he wasn't paying attention with a more junior student who was full of testosterone and certain his would work.

That's unfortunate he broke his hand. I was asking because wrist locks have fine details that makes them hurt so much more. That's why I asked MA what locks in particular has he experienced and what the person's background was that applied them

I agree that some people are more flexible and the effectiveness varies from person to person. But have you encountered people that aren't responsive to a z-lock or Nikyo lock? Im not suggesting it's impossible, just curious.
 

wab25

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I can only tell you of personal experience. Nothing works if YOU don't believe it.
I don't agree with this. If someone gets caught in a proper rear naked choke, whether they believe in it or not, they will go out. I train this technique, and I don't have to worry about how they hold their tongue, lift their toes or if they believe that they can be choked out.

I personally would not teach a technique, as a self defense technique, if it requires the attacker to believe that they will be taken out by it. I would be afraid that the student might believe me, and try it, in a real situation.

My experience in pressure points, is similar to what other here have said. Each art contains them, as part of the techniques they already study. For example, we have an art where a punch is thrown, the other guy parries, enters, breaks uke's balance and structure, applies a pressure point, then executes a take down. I find that in practicing the kata, I can now hit that pressure point very accurately, and get a massive effect... when practicing the kata. Even when we run at full speed, full power, or put it into another combination. However, once we go into randori, the effectiveness goes down dramatically. Is it because the other guy is no longer a willing participant? I don't know.

Another experience I had, was with a restorative art. When we choke someone out, there is a nerve in the neck that you can excite to wake them up. When practicing, exciting that nerve, if done right, will cause the guy to flinch pretty good, and you can get both feet off the ground. (he is laying down... ) When I had my black belt exam, and got to that technique, I had the added pressure of highly ranked people judging my every move. I got a little excited, hit the nerve pretty good, and the poor guy flinched so hard, it looked like he levitated about 4 inches straight up off the mat.

So, my take on these techniques is that they are valuable, when worked from the outside in. In the take down version, I am first defending, entering, breaking balance... before applying the pressure point... then immediately following up with a take down. If I get the "randori" effect, I mentioned... which is not much... its ok, he is still going down. If I get the other "levitating" effect... AWESOME... he is still going down. What I think is most valuable, is practicing that pressure point in the middle of the combination. It is a small target, that must be hit with the right surface, in the right direction... this accuracy requires me to focus on getting all of that right. In the mean time, I am letting my subconscious mind or muscle memory handle the punch defense, entering, off balancing, and take down... while I am focusing on something else. Pretty soon, the rest of the combination and the other moves get better... and I get to practice them without thinking about them. So regardless of how well the point actually works on this particular guy, the rest of the technique should.

I find that when practicing the pressure point first, you get the least amount of time working on the other parts... and it is the other parts that have the higher effectiveness. (they don't rely on any belief from the other guy)

Working from outside into a pressure point, I find it worth the effort. It gets you to practice your basic arts, with out thinking about them too much. It gets you to practice things in combination. Your actual mileage from the pressure point will vary, depending on a lot of things. But that's ok, as you are not relying on the pressure point to finish it. If it does, you have a really good story. If it doesn't, all the higher percentage stuff you did before and after, should do the trick.
 

drop bear

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A punch has a lot more chance of a higher success rate than a pressure point.

You can't develop an immunity some people just have it. It's not really something you can train

A punch is a pressure point.
 

drop bear

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Another experience I had, was with a restorative art. When we choke someone out, there is a nerve in the neck that you can excite to wake them up. When practicing, exciting that nerve, if done right, will cause the guy to flinch pretty good, and you can get both feet off the ground. (he is laying down... ) When I had my black belt exam, and got to that technique, I had the added pressure of highly ranked people judging my every move. I got a little excited, hit the nerve pretty good, and the poor guy flinched so hard, it looked like he levitated about 4 inches straight up off the mat.

I just leave them there. Nut shots same treatment.

I don't think getting restoratively man handled really helps.
 
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