Poomsae are a bit weird to a karateka, Help?

[Jackthekarateguy]

Now I'm a little curious about Poomsae in TKD. I have studied a few videos and have noticed 2 things:

1: Rhythm
In Taekwondo it appears that all techniques go at a steady pace, a bit like a crotchet. 1,2 1,2 1,2. In karate techniques change rhythm a lot, with quick'uns and slow'uns alike.

2: technique shape: the techniques are all named, defined techniques like front kick or turning kick or x-block. also they are all appear to always be done in the same way, with never any poomsae specific, more esoteric motions like

Is this the case for all poomsae, or am i only seeing basic ones. or Is there some kind of practical explanation?

I need answers!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Now I'm a little curious about Poomsae in TKD. I have studied a few videos and have noticed 2 things:

1: Rhythm
In Taekwondo it appears that all techniques go at a steady pace, a bit like a crotchet. 1,2 1,2 1,2. In karate techniques change rhythm a lot, with quick'uns and slow'uns alike.

2: technique shape: the techniques are all named, defined techniques like front kick or turning kick or x-block. also they are all appear to always be done in the same way, with never any poomsae specific, more esoteric motions like

Is this the case for all poomsae, or am i only seeing basic ones. or Is there some kind of practical explanation?

I need answers!

Your impressions are incorrect. While poomsae do tend to be fairly rhythmic (as are many kata) this is not universally true. Couple examples off the top of my head would be Palgwae 3 and 8.

I'm not sure what you mean by "poomsae specific" but if you're looking for variations on a theme, the same blocks (as an example) are done in different poomsae from different stances. Further, you will see outside blocks done in various ways (middle section vs high section, for example), as well as kicks that are targeted to different areas of the body. Koryo, for example, has side kicks that are specifically aimed at different targets. Do-san, as another example, has front kicks specifically aimed at the midsection.

 

[scottC]

I think that your first impression is not entirely wrong, and yet not entirely right. Poomsae flow. In a way there is a rhythym to every form, but this varies by style/which form your doing, and rarely follows the generic 1,2 1,2. In the beginning it may be taught to you like this but as you progress you will see that even a form as simple as taeguek 1 has its own specific tempo and flow.

As far as poomsae specific moves go, poomsaes are designed to help teach you taekwondo(at least I hope so). So each form usually has has a new stance, block, or kick for you to master.

 

[MAist25]

This is a pretty good question. I think most of the answers to your questions go back to Taekwondo's history. As far as the rhythm of poomsae, I would say you are generally correct in that they tend to follow a specific rhythm (I am speaking specifically about Kukki TKD). This is mostly due to the fact that the Korean masters who created Taekwondo poomsae did so based on their knowledge of the Pinan Kata they learned from Japanese Karate. The Pinan Kata also follow a general rhythm, although there are times when the speeds and rhythm of the forms do vary, just like in the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomsae. But overall, the rhythms of Taekwondo poomsae are based off of the rhythms of the Pinan Kata.

As for the individual techniques of Taekwondo poomsae being specifically defined, I believe the answers also lie in Taekwondo's history. The Koreans who learned Japanese Karate did so at a time when Karate was being "mass produced" for lack of a better term. Basically, the hidden techniques in kata were replaced by simple block, kick, punch sequences so that Karate could be taught to the masses, especially kids. The Korean masters who learned Karate and returned to Korea, did so with this understanding of kata. Therefore, when they designed the Palgwe and later the Taegeuk poomsae, they also used the simple, block, kick, punch sequences. This is due to them not truly understanding the essence of Kata and never being taught the hidden applications or meaning of the kata they had learned.

 

[SJON]

2: technique shape: the techniques are all named, defined techniques like front kick or turning kick or x-block. also they are all appear to always be done in the same way, with never any poomsae specific, more esoteric motions like

My direct experience of Karate styles is limited, but I think I know what you mean. In Karate you often get individual techniques that only turn up in a certain kata or are performed in a notably different way only in a certain kata. Not just different stances or heights. Also a lot of "fiddly bits" between techniques, intricate hand movements and the like. Clearly this has to do with the intended applications of the kata sequences.

Note that it tends to be the Okinawan versions that show this most. The more Japanese they get, i.e. Shotokan, the more "standardised" the movements become, and it could be said that details are glossed over.

I think this tendency carried forwards into TKD. Rather than having a set of "rigid" basic techniques that are "flexibly" expressed in the patterns, the standard technique "templates" are also used in the patterns. You'll very rarely find extra "in-between" movements in the poomse beyond what is already contained in the chambering of the basic technique.

All forms to one extent or another are stylised representations of fighting techniques rather than being the fighting techniques themselves. Aesthetics are a big concern, particularly the end position of a technique. This means you often get techniques "shoehorned" into a template that doesn't quite fit, e.g. inward knifehand strikes in a forward-facing stance, with no provision for turning the rear knee in.

This isn't a bad thing. It just means that when interpreting the form, you need to think about how "literal" you need to be, how faithful to the exact movement. I find that older Okinawan kata can be applied pretty much as-is. However, the applications I teach for the Taegeuk poomse show quite a lot of variation from the standard pattern movement, though they are still broadly recognisable.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Rumy73]

Ok, i am guessing he is referring to kkw created patterns known as poomse. Yes, these are as the poster described. They are intended to be building blocks of technique. They are very defined and limit interpretation. They are about duplication as an art, something that is important in Korean culture. Of course, in this forum, there are ppl who do other patterns, but i believe the poster is not referencing those, which are anomolies in tkd these days (no offense).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Now I'm a little curious about Poomsae in TKD. I have studied a few videos and have noticed 2 things:

1: Rhythm
In Taekwondo it appears that all techniques go at a steady pace, a bit like a crotchet. 1,2 1,2 1,2. In karate techniques change rhythm a lot, with quick'uns and slow'uns alike.

Your use of the term "poomsae" means you're most likely referring to the forms developed by the Kukkiwon/KTA. I only learned a few of the Taeguk poomsae and Koryo when I was training at a KKW club in college. Your observation is, from my experience, largely accurate. There was no variation in rhythm for the Taeguks that I learned and only a couple of places in Koryo where there was a difference in rhythm. I don't know if other Taeguk poomsae were different but the few I learned had a uniform rhythm for all techniques.

The tul developed by Gen. Choi and taught by the ITF have techniques that are executed in slow, fast, consecutive, and connecting motions (as opposed to the "normal" speed of most techniques). This tends to give certain parts of the various tul their own rhythm.

For myself, I have always wondered why karate kata, which emphasize various applications for single techniques or technique sets, do include different rhythms in the kata themselves. If, say, a low block/middle punch combination has different applications based on different scenarios why is it given a particular rhythm at all in the kata? Wouldn't it be better to train a kata at different rhythms depending on what application is being visualized at that time? Different applications also use different biomechanics, despite the fact that the "same" technique is being executed. This should also be taken into when practicing, I would think.

2: technique shape: the techniques are all named, defined techniques like front kick or turning kick or x-block. also they are all appear to always be done in the same way, with never any poomsae specific, more esoteric motions like

You seem to have left off any sort of example in your second question, after the word "like." That makes it a little difficult to understand what you mean by "esoteric motions" since you don't give a reference from a karate kata, which is what I presume you were doing. That being said, Gen. Choi's tul do contain some techniques that are performed in particular ways in the patterns that vary from their standard method of execution.

Is this the case for all poomsae, or am i only seeing basic ones. or Is there some kind of practical explanation?

I need answers!

The most practical explanation is that the people who developed the patterns used by the various Taekwon-Do groups were designing them to accomplish different goals than the people who designed the karate kata with which you are familiar. This is something that has caused karate practitioners to look at Taekwon-Do patterns with confusion because they are viewing them through their own expectations, not from the viewpoint of the people who designed the patterns in the first place.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kframe]

So, with regards to KKW forms, what are there intent? I don't do kata, but I enjoy watching it and trying to pick out the various movements and there application. Some how I am getting the feeling that KKW forms are not really meant to be explored like a karate guy does bunkai. I see some things that are painfully obvious, like Ill catch a middleblock that becomes a trap, and escapes from a wrist grab, or a full nelson.

 

[MAist25]

Poomsae are generally just fundamental techniques strung together that include more advanced techniques and sequences as you progress though the forms. You are right, they aren't really made to be "studied" like kata are. They are just used to teach proper body mechanics and execution of techniques, stances, balance, movement, etc. Each poomsae also has a philosophical meaning behind it that the practitioner should try and capture through the performance of their poomsae.

 

[Rumy73]

Poomsae can be used as the basis of interpretive/creative work or in a competition.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So, with regards to KKW forms, what are there intent? I don't do kata, but I enjoy watching it and trying to pick out the various movements and there application. Some how I am getting the feeling that KKW forms are not really meant to be explored like a karate guy does bunkai. I see some things that are painfully obvious, like Ill catch a middleblock that becomes a trap, and escapes from a wrist grab, or a full nelson.

Depends on who you ask. There are some who insist that poomsae are nothing more than a series of movements strung together in a more-or-less logical way to be used to teach these basic movements. Others will insist that applications, including applications beyond the obvious, exist within the poomsae.

I fall into the later group.

 

[Jackthekarateguy]

You seem to have left off any sort of example in your second question, after the word "like." That makes it a little difficult to understand what you mean by "esoteric motions" since you don't give a reference from a karate kata, which is what I presume you were doing. That being said, Gen. Choi's tul do contain some techniques that are performed in particular ways in the patterns that vary from their standard method of execution.

Sorry about that, I was gonna give an example of a goju Ryu kata but I decided it mightn't be that helpful as the folks in this part of MT may not actually recognise it, and just stopped typing instead of checking my grammar. I was going to reference the opening of seienchin kata, the movements of which are totally unique to that kata.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As for the individual techniques of Taekwondo poomsae being specifically defined, I believe the answers also lie in Taekwondo's history. The Koreans who learned Japanese Karate did so at a time when Karate was being "mass produced" for lack of a better term. Basically, the hidden techniques in kata were replaced by simple block, kick, punch sequences so that Karate could be taught to the masses, especially kids. The Korean masters who learned Karate and returned to Korea, did so with this understanding of kata. Therefore, when they designed the Palgwe and later the Taegeuk poomsae, they also used the simple, block, kick, punch sequences. This is due to them not truly understanding the essence of Kata and never being taught the hidden applications or meaning of the kata they had learned.

Yes, all the hidden and secret real stuff is way to diificult for people to understand or figure out.

"Bruce Lee “Before I studied martial arts, a punch was just a punch. When my studies began, I realized a punch wasn’t just a punch. Now that I have mastered martial arts, I realize, a punch is just a punch!”.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry about that, I was gonna give an example of a goju Ryu kata but I decided it mightn't be that helpful as the folks in this part of MT may not actually recognise it, and just stopped typing instead of checking my grammar. I was going to reference the opening of seienchin kata, the movements of which are totally unique to that kata.

I don't think they're unique...

I don't know if this is a good example, but it's what I looked at to see what the opening movements are.

Please feel free to provide a better example.

The first move I see is to an overlapping hands ready stance, AKA kyopson junbiseogi, as seen in the KKW yudanja form Pyongwon.
Next there is a low spread block, which is seen in any number of poomsae, including Keumgang.
He then moves into a horse stance (albeit at an angle) and performs a pushing hands low block, which is seen in Koryo as a ready stance AKA tongmilgi junbiseogi.

The chambers may be slightly different, and the terminal positions may be different (low section vs mid section, etc) but the moves don't really seem unique. Variations on a theme, certainly, but not unique.
None of that is intended to be taken as any degree of disparagement of the kata.

Incidentally, I find phrases such as "totally unique" to be more than a little silly, since unique means 'one of a kind' or 'the only example' and it is impossible to be partially unique.

 

[Jackthekarateguy]

I don't think they're unique...

The first move I see is to an overlapping hands ready stance, AKA kyopson junbiseogi, as seen in the KKW yudanja form Pyongwon.
Next there is a low spread block, which is seen in any number of poomsae, including Keumgang.
He then moves into a horse stance (albeit at an angle) and performs a pushing hands low block, which is seen in Koryo as a ready stance AKA tongmilgi junbiseogi.

The chambers may be slightly different, and the terminal positions may be different (low section vs mid section, etc) but the moves don't really seem unique. Variations on a theme, certainly, but not unique.
None of that is intended to be taken as any degree of disparagement of the kata.

Incidentally, I find phrases such as "totally unique" to be more than a little silly, since unique means 'one of a kind' or 'the only example' and it is impossible to be partially unique.

Well first I must call you a pedant
Secondly, when I said unique I meant unique to that specific kata within goju ryu, not seen elsewhere in the style, which those opening moves are. it doesn't surprise me at all that it's seen in other martial arts. When I said Poomsae specific I meant moves specific to that poomsae within TKD, not seen in other taekwondo patterns. You say these techniques are all seen in various poomsae. can you provide an example of a movement only ever seen in one specific poomsae?

 

[dancingalone]

I don't think they're unique...

I don't know if this is a good example, but it's what I looked at to see what the opening movements are.

I don't care to get into a unique, non-unique discussion, but the Kyokushin video isn't the best performance, particularly if we're talking about Goju-ryu specifically. This video is a fairly good representation of the kata. It's also performed slowly for display/teaching purposes so it does lack dynamics and that should be understood going in.

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[Dirty Dog]

Well first I must call you a pedant

I've been called worse...

Secondly, when I said unique I meant unique to that specific kata within goju ryu, not seen elsewhere in the style, which those opening moves are. it doesn't surprise me at all that it's seen in other martial arts. When I said Poomsae specific I meant moves specific to that poomsae within TKD, not seen in other taekwondo patterns. You say these techniques are all seen in various poomsae. can you provide an example of a movement only ever seen in one specific poomsae?

Maybe... but since I am not familiar with ALL of the various poomsae used by different TKD systems, maybe not.

How about Keumgang Momtong Makki - the diamond middle block. It's used in Palgwae Sa Jang, and I can't think of any other TKD forms that use that specific technique.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok, i am guessing he is referring to kkw created patterns known as poomse. Yes, these are as the poster described. They are intended to be building blocks of technique. They are very defined and limit interpretation. They are about duplication as an art, something that is important in Korean culture. Of course, in this forum, there are ppl who do other patterns, but i believe the poster is not referencing those, which are anomolies in tkd these days (no offense).

Within KKW taekwondo, if you say pumsae, you're probably talking about Taegeuk Pumsae. Palgwe Pumsae were also KKW created, by the way, but they haven't been the current forms for several decades and were only current for a brief period of time.

While there are some exceptions, particularly after oh-jang, in general, they are fairly rhythmic and are as MAist25 said:

Poomsae are generally just fundamental techniques strung together that include more advanced techniques and sequences as you progress though the forms. You are right, they aren't really made to be "studied" like kata are. They are just used to teach proper body mechanics and execution of techniques, stances, balance, movement, etc. Each poomsae also has a philosophical meaning behind it that the practitioner should try and capture through the performance of their poomsae.

As a general rule, KKW pedagogy doesn't involve bunkai. Techniques that a karate sensei would teach with bunkai are generally just taught on their own. Some KKW instructors use bunkai/bunhae, but it is either of their own invention or something that they've picked up somewhere else. A good example this would be Simon O'Neil's book, "The Taegeuk Cipher." I haven't read it, but from what I understand, it is quite good. It isn't how Taegeuk pumsae are normally taught, but I hear that it is worth the read.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now I'm a little curious about Poomsae in TKD. I have studied a few videos and have noticed 2 things:

1: Rhythm
In Taekwondo it appears that all techniques go at a steady pace, a bit like a crotchet. 1,2 1,2 1,2. In karate techniques change rhythm a lot, with quick'uns and slow'uns alike.

2: technique shape: the techniques are all named, defined techniques like front kick or turning kick or x-block. also they are all appear to always be done in the same way, with never any poomsae specific, more esoteric motions like

Is this the case for all poomsae, or am i only seeing basic ones. or Is there some kind of practical explanation?

I need answers!

Assuming that you're talking about the Taegeuk Pumsae, there are only eight. If you include the yundanja pumsae, there are only nine of those. I'm not a high dan, so I cannot comment most of the yudanja pumsae, but as a general rule, the Pumsae are not like kata. Teaching pedagogy is different in KKW taekwondo. Creative and knowledgeable instructors see things embeded in the pumsae and teach in that way, but there are no established bunkai for these forms. Teaching in that way isn't wrong, but the quality of it will depend on the instructor and the sources for his/her applications.

 

[dancingalone]

Teaching in that way isn't wrong, but the quality of it will depend on the instructor and the sources for his/her applications.

My sabumnim is somewhat dismissive of the idea. He says that's what hapkido is for.

<shrugs> I am fond of form applications but because of their seemingly "contraband" status in KKW-land, I have confined my extensions upon Korean forms to the Chang Hon set.