The Meaning of Koryo Poomsae

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
<<This has developed very good black belt students with a clear
difference between a 1st dan and a 2nd dan.>>


I am not so sure that there should be as clear a difference between
1st and 2nd Dans, and the reason why I say that is because of my
understanding of Koryo.

The 1975 Taekwondo poomsae textbook describes Koryo as follows: "Koryo
(Korea) is the name of an ancient dynasty (A.D. 918-1392) in Korea.
The English word 'Korea' is originated from the name of 'Koryo'
Dynasty. Koryo's legacy to the Korean people is very significant.
Koryo men invented metal type for the first time in the
world (1234), more than two centuries before Johannes Guttenberg
(1398?-1468), and also created the famous Koryo ceramics.
Moreover, they showed great fortitude by persistently defeating the
aggression of the Mongolians who were sweeping the known world
at the time. The application of the spirit of Koryo men into the
movement of Taekwondo is Poomse "Koryo". Consequently, every
motion of poomse Koryo is the presentation of the strong conviction
and will with which Koryo men held in check the Mongolians, and,
therefore it can be one's posture of cultivating himself in which he
may follow the wisdom and unyielding spirit of the man of
conviction."

The new Kukkiwon Textbook describes Koryo as follows (slightly
different from the older explanation):

"Koryo poomsae symbolizes 'seonbae' which means a learned man,
who is characterized by a strong martial spirit as well as a righteous
learned man's spirit. The spirit had been inherited through the ages
of Koguryo, Pahae and down to Koryo, which is the background
of organizing the Koryo poomsae. . . . The line of poomsae
represents the Chinese letter which means 'seonbae' or 'seonbi', a
learned man or a man of virtue in the Korean language."

Of all the ranks and students, I expect the least from 1st Dans. 1st
Dans often times (but not always) go through a phase where they
are inconsistent in their training, and instead strut around like they
have "arrived". Because of the inconsistent training, their skill
level often decreases, and it is often true that these practitioners
had a higher skill level as a senior red belt than as a 1st Dan.

The 1st Dan, like the 4th Dan, is a very dangerous and unstable time
for many practitioners, and the point where many will stop serious
training. Hopefully, for the 1st Dan, this phase will be a short one,
and his or her desire and conviction for Taekwondo training will
return.

The main difference between a 1st Dan and 2nd Dan is that the 2nd
Dan has passed through the 1st Dan phase, and understands that
there is more to learn and more to travel on the martial arts journey,
that it is time to kick it up a notch and train even harder than
before.

For me, when a student comes to this realization, and shows the
persistence and determination to go on with the journey, then this
student is ready for promotion to 2nd Dan, where his focus will be
to make his techniques solid and strong.

The diagram for the the Koryo poomsae is character # 31(Sa) in
Bruce Grant's dictionary, and he defines it as follows:

"scholar; gentleman; officer; soldier". Examples given are Shin Sa
(gentleman, man of honor), Byun Ho Sa (lawyer, attorney) and
Yong Sa (brave man, man of courage).

In many respects, a 1st Dan is similar to an "O1" in the military, the
ensign or 2nd lieutenant who just came out of the academy or
ROTC. No one expects much from these inexperienced officer
level members of the military, and so how much can we really expect
from a 1st Dan, especially from the 9th Dan perspective? Like
the O1, no one really stays at that rank for very long, and the 1st
Dan, after learning to be comfortable at the dan rank level, and
having demonstrated some discipline and understanding of the road
ahead, is ready for the 2nd Dan promotion.

This is why in Korea, you will find many students being promoted
relatively quickly to the 2nd Dan level, because in Korea, the "real"
training starts at 2nd Dan, not 1st Dan.

I believe this is why so many instructors experience disappointment
with their 1st Dans, because they fail to understand like the pioneers
did that 1st Dans often times need to take a break from training,
before resuming serious training at a later point. 1st Dan is a
natural "cruise" time for many practitioners, a recess or summer
vacation if you will, before training starts up again. The original
Koryo consistented of a straight line, up and down, and you went back
and forth up and down in the form, in much the same way 1st Dans act,
will their waning interest during their needed break time.

This is a much different view than what most think of when they
think of 1st Dans, but at the same time, I think we can all relate to
it to some degree. Be patient with your 1st Dans in the same way that
you would be patient with your brand new high school graduate
child, and they will eventually come around and go back to school,
or quit school altogether and do something else. Either way, it's
their decision to make, which is the lesson and choice that all 1st
Dans must make, on their own.
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
puunui I think the above is good insight to what may happen to alot of 1st Dan students. Thanks for the post.
 

dancingalone

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,322
Reaction score
281
We've debated the merits of the "probationary" black belt before. Some of the thoughts expressed above could be used in support of the practice.
 
OP
P

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
We've debated the merits of the "probationary" black belt before. Some of the thoughts expressed above could be used in support of the practice.

I don't believe in probationary 1st Dan. There is no probationary high school diploma, or any diploma really. I just give them their 1st Dan, and if they quit, they quit.
 

Tony49

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
75
Reaction score
2
Location
Fresno, CA
I don't believe in probationary 1st Dan. There is no probationary high school diploma, or any diploma really. I just give them their 1st Dan, and if they quit, they quit.

I agree with your OP, however disagree with your probationary comment. It could be semantics but we make our students wait 6 months after their test before receiving their belt and certificate, in a way to help them over the bump/transition form Gup to Dan. By the way, this is pretty standard for both high school and college diplomas. You don't get them for a couple months after graduation because they are verifying that everything is in order. So I guess by having them wait we are just verifying that everything is in order.
 

andyjeffries

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
2,019
Reaction score
340
Location
Stevenage, Herts, UK
I don't believe in probationary 1st Dan. There is no probationary high school diploma, or any diploma really. I just give them their 1st Dan, and if they quit, they quit.

I agree with you. If you think they are worth a 1st Dan, promote them. What they choose to do with it is up to them.

My feelings may come from the fact that for me the mystique of the black belt has gone a bit, 1st Dan is really a stepping stone from a beginner to a real student - where they know all the basics and are at the point where a simple verbal correction can make a real difference without needing lengthy explanations without physical examples and analogies.

Some people see 1st Dan as an almighty achievement and therefore it's important to only promote to 1st Dan if you're sure they're a lifelong student.
 
OP
P

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
By the way, this is pretty standard for both high school and college diplomas. You don't get them for a couple months after graduation because they are verifying that everything is in order. So I guess by having them wait we are just verifying that everything is in order.


But once you graduate from high school or college, there are no more classes to attend and you don't even have to show up. The school simply mails you your diploma or you pick it up. At most martial arts schools which use the bo dan or probationary black belt, if you fail to show up regularly for class after your black belt test, you will not leave the bo dan or probationary rank. So it is different than what high school or colleges do as far as diplomas go.
 

Tony49

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
75
Reaction score
2
Location
Fresno, CA
Not necessary True. Not in Highschool but in college you can graduate or go through the ceremony in May but still have to take one more class in September before you official can recieve your diploma. Like I said they need to verify everything is on the up an up.
 
OP
P

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
Not in Highschool but in college you can graduate or go through the ceremony in May but still have to take one more class in September before you official can recieve your diploma. Like I said they need to verify everything is on the up an up.


Not at my college. If you didn't complete all the course requirements, then you couldn't walk and go through the ceremony. They did all that checking you are talking about before the graduation ceremony, not after. And the reason why there is a delay I was told was because they needed to print it up, not because of any checking. But maybe you went to a different college.

Irrespective, the 1st Dan is like a high school diploma, so the analogy would be to the high school situation, which you admit you cannot graduate unless you completed everything.
 

Tony49

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
75
Reaction score
2
Location
Fresno, CA
Yes, I definitely agree not all colleges are the same. As for the printing, they could of easily of gotten it done ahead time. Most teachers don't turn grades in until after. I just asked my dad about the High School he taught for 30years. He said you could walk and then take a summer course to finish everything up. This was rare but a possibility from time to time. As for the whole probationary thing, we do it at our school but you are right it really doesn't matter. If they are going to leave they are going to leave, I just want to make sure they leave with a black belt attitude which from my limited experience only comes after you take the test and usually takes 6 months.
 

Kong Soo Do

IKSDA Director
Supporting Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
2,419
Reaction score
329
It could be semantics but we make our students wait 6 months after their test before receiving their belt and certificate, in a way to help them over the bump/transition form Gup to Dan.

I'm curious what this 'bump' would be and how witholding their rank for six months assists them with getting over it? Shouldn't the 6-12 months prior to testing be a prepatory period for the upcoming test? Shouldn't this be the period the instructor(s) are assisting and evaluating them to see if testing is appropriate?

So I guess by having them wait we are just verifying that everything is in order.

Again, shouldn't you as an instructor, have ensured everything is 'in order' prior to administering a test? Isn't that your responsibility as an instructor? What happens if you find, after the fact, that something is not in order? Forget the test and not issue the rank? Does that mean you refund the testing fee? And what exactly would constitute something 'not being in order'?
 

Kinghercules

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
259
Reaction score
7
Location
Washington DC
I'm curious what this 'bump' would be and how witholding their rank for six months assists them with getting over it? Shouldn't the 6-12 months prior to testing be a prepatory period for the upcoming test? Shouldn't this be the period the instructor(s) are assisting and evaluating them to see if testing is appropriate?



Again, shouldn't you as an instructor, have ensured everything is 'in order' prior to administering a test? Isn't that your responsibility as an instructor? What happens if you find, after the fact, that something is not in order? Forget the test and not issue the rank? Does that mean you refund the testing fee? And what exactly would constitute something 'not being in order'?

Yeah I have to agree with Kong Soo Do. That doesnt make sense to me. Because six months later it shud be time for another test.
 

Latest Discussions

Top