Pinan/Pinion and Katas

[Karazenpo]

The "Curse of the Internet" strikes again! LoL. I took the comment "Down and Dirty" as that everyone was getting technical. just a little deeper lol. Everyone interprets the dialogue differently. Thats why i am reluctant to post anything for fear it will be taken out of context and also try to be super polite. Every one has been awesome coming out with the info on this thread.

RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style. www.karate.org.yu has tons of old style karate info including pics of funakoshi's closer to original style showing pinan and naihanchi if anyone wants to check it out.


Karazenpo: monkey-a-go-go=too much caffeine+motobu+saru+"monkey dance"-hawaiian kenpo term. corny i know.
With the kata names in kenpo- There seems to be no end in the different spellings of naihanchi- guess its oral tradition. Nabura Tanamaha-when did issuing the black belt rank become popular? I thought that was later and still not prevalent with okinawans? Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him. One last thing- Can you imagine all the sour puss's on "traditional" karate guys faces when they hear something like how cerio got his some forms form oyama's books?! Lol. Hey this stuff IMHO ain't rocket science. People would be surprised to learn where alot of "traditional" info came from historically. The wheel keeps getting perpetually re-invented.

Matt: Great stuff.

Thanks, my friend, now I know how you got your 'handle', it was always a mystery to me!, lol. Yeah, I would have to assume (but you know what they say about assuming) that Mizuho would have a spot in the documentary, he would have to, but I'll check with Professor Abregana when I have a chance. I thought you'd like that Oyama book thing!, lol. Hey, it worked, we're still practicing them and teaching them going on four decades now!, lol.

 

[BallistikMike]

Ok to formalize what I think I have here is below :


Pinan/Pinion #1
Taikyoku #1

Pinan/Pinion #2
Parts of Taikyoku #2 & #3, Kung Line Drills & Basics from the instruction Nick Cerio received while in Hawaii.

Pinan/Pinion #3
The Pinan kata #3 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #4
The Pinan kata #4 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #5
The Pinan kata #5 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Side note - as a reference the Okinawan Karate Pinan series 1 - 5 as well as the Shotokan Heian series 1 - 5 kata can be referenced. Note - Shotokan Karate switched Pinan #1 to Heian #2 and Pinan #2 to Heian #1.

Statue of the Crane
Another variation of an Okinawan Karate Kata called Rohai. Now I know there are a few Okinawan variations of Rohai Small and Large come to mind. I need to research this one a bit more.

That shores up the Traditional Karate Kata I believe.

Now onto the Kajukenbo/Kenpo Kata

Kata 1 - 5
Kata 1 - 5 also refered to as Pinions in Karazenpo where some of the confusion may lie in names when cross referncing the various systems.

These Kata are believed to be developed by Victor Gascon, Walter Godin and Dave Kamalani.

The Palama Sets 1 - 12 ? can be cross referenced because I think it is 1 - 8 that help make up the Kata 1 - 5 along with various self-defense techniques and punch counters (combinations in SKK)

Kata #6
Developed by George Pesare with slight variations throughout the Shaolin Kempo curriculum.

Hansuki
Developed by Bill Chin, taught to Nick Cerio and then brought into Shaolin Kempo Karate by Fred Villari in a strange manner. From what I gather Nick Cerio was in Florida? and Fred Villari was taught this Kata by Nick Cerios brother without Nick Cerios permission.

This may account for the variations in the Shaolin Kempo curiculum. Also atristic interpretation may also be at fault here.

Summary
Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 in Shaolin Kempo Karate
- Not the same as Pinan/Heian 1 & 2 in traditional Okinanwan Karate. 3,4 & 5 are the same with slight variations.

Kata 1 - 5 refered to in Karazenpo as pinans/pinions in the "old days"

Kata 6

Statue of the Crane

Hansuki

That would some up the basic curiculum kata before the NCK/Villaris Kempo changes when they split and formed their own systems?

 

[RRouuselot]

……
RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style.

Matt: Great stuff.

Well for starters the stances in Funakoshi’s karate are as deep as they are now. He also didn’t use the “back stance”……kind of a giant neko ashi dachi…..many of the hand postions in the kata differ from his original style.
One important thing……the photos of the stances in “karate do nyumon” are NOT the way Funakoshi taught them. The bozos in that book are doing something totally different.


Something from that URL:

"According to several sources, Funikoshi was first introduced to the Pinans during a trip to Osaka where he received instruction from Kenwa Mabuni, the founder of Shito-Ryu.

During his subsequent visits he learned a number of the kata from Mabuni that would eventually be taught in the Shotokan system. Regardless of their origin or lineage, there is no doubt that today the Pinan Series is practiced world-wide by Okinawan, Japanese, as well as some Korean styles."

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Rousselot: As I understand it Funakoshi thought otsuhka had too much jiujistu in his karate. Funakoshi indicated he knew grappling but thought otsuka took things out balance. Anyway I am losing my train of thought here. I am sure I originaly had a point. Anyway I get what you mean.

 

[Karazenpo]

1) Funakoshi was pretty much of a wuss….which has been documented by several people that knew him….Motobu Choki “chumped him out” in front of Funakoshi’s own students…there are several stories of how Funakoshi was writing checks with his mouth his *** couldn’t cash. Prety funny reading!!!
2) Actually you are mistaken. What I consider “Traditional karate” is a “live art” at least the art I train is….don’t think so??? …just throw on some bogu gear and go full out no pulled punches sometime like we do….or do “randori” with strikes and joint locks like we do…it’s “tippy-tap” arts that practice point sparring that are not “live”…….those aren’t “Traditional karate”.

Hi Robert, Yeah, I feel the same way about Funakoshi but I implied it once and upset some people so I was tying to be politcally correct, lol. I also heard the Motobu story and always felt Motobu was the man because he wasn't afraid to use his skills for real. You can always put more faith in someone who teaches you that has been there and done that! Know what I mean? I understand your point in Traditional karate from your viewpoint being a live art but it is my fault for not clarifying my position. What I mean't was in true karate, there is no protection so you can't use the bone breaking aspects, the full power vital area strikes which would result in serious injury or death, therefore, not getting a feel of the FULL effect of what you're doing. Know what I mean? In boxing or kickboxing, the goal is not to kill, cripple or maim but to knock the other guy out. You are allowed to use everything in your boxing arsenal at full power & full speed, so you have better a understanding of what techniques are working for you. In grappling, it's essentailly the same thing, you can even choke the guy out to some degree, just ask Gene Labelle, lol. Good discussion, Take care, "Joe"

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

RRouuselot: ok -we're on the same page. While Funakoshi wasn't a fighter I don't see him has a wuss though. It took alot of determination to take on the task to promote karate like he did. he did like to talk though. As much as I appreciate Motobu I think there is some viability to question what the old timers were willing to teach him and to what extent. Who knows...

 

[The Kai]

Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.


I think the art of Karate is rather recent (as far as being popular) so that even as littel as 50 yrs ago there was mystery, confusion. With small paockets of karate'kas, no resources. kata names re bound to get a little blurred
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Todd wrote: Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.

Hi Todd, I heard the same thing. The powers-to-be at the time in Okinawa thought Motobu too crude and unpolished. I'm not saying that's true but that's just what I've read. Politics, politics, politics..................

 

[The Kai]

In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer. Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!

T-

 

[Karazenpo]

In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer. Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!

T-

I saw a copy of that Todd. He was posed in the opening high/middle block position of Karazenpo's fourth form. (#4 kata in Shaolin Kempo Karate, #1 Pinan in Okinawan karate and Heian #2 in Shotokan). From what I researched when Motobu saw it, he was livid and went looking for Funakoshi. Allegedly they had an encounter and Funakoshi came out on the short end of it. Like I said before, I don't know how accurate these stories are but that's what's out there so I still remain open minded on them. Also, it's been said the boxer was a heavyweight 'Russian Boxing Champion'. Russian- yes, heavyweight-I believe so, Champion-embellished, from what I understand he was a carnival boxer, still a tough dude I bet since he did take on all challengers. Choki Motobu was one tough S.O.B., I think that fact stands undisputed! Did you know he believed in fighting with the strong side forward with consecutive striking (striking off the same hand)? Here's something to think about. The information I have is the relationship of Mitose's Kenpo with Nabura Tanamaha (Motobu lineage) and Robert Trias (Motobu lineage). Now, Chow was Mitose's student and we go to Emperado, Leoning, Gascon-Karazenpo. Look at #2 combination in Karazenpo's Shaolin Kempo, consecutive striking of the right side forward hand. Cerio makes several trips to Hawaii and does some training with Chow and begins working on Nick Cerio's Kenpo. He takes #2 combination (consecutive strikes off the strong side), revises the opening block to a softer and outward motion instead of hard inward but most of all, adds three more hand srikes, all consecutively off the right side forward, further emphasizing the Motobu concept. It appears there's a connection there. The only other I heard of that fought strong side forward (right side providing you're a right hander and vice-versa) was Bruce Lee influenced by the Wing Chun system and that was long after Motobu. Something to think about...............

 

[The Kai]

Just a little Question o.k?

I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
Todd

 

[BallistikMike]

Just a little Question o.k?

I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
Todd

Yes I believe there is some truth in this. It would be logical because of boxing and even wrestling keeping the strong hand back (most people being right handed).

Before boxing was made into the modern day sport it is today, it used tohave footwork very similar to step throughs and switching while punching. Also the fighting stance watch more more ridgid and deeper then by today's standards.

Point is that the strong hand was held back because an old bare knuckler would step through with his right foot delivering that right cross/overhead after the "jab" set it up and reeled them back or "arched" them.

High mobile stances do have a place, but knockdown dragout bar fights mainly come to delivering powerfull shots in rooted stances. Not really deep, but not high and mobile.I have been in the bar business some 16 years now and seen/been in my share of them. I never bought into the high mobile stances, I also never bought into strong side back or forward.

The situation dictates it plus personal preference and your ability to deliver effective strikes under combat conditions (fighting).

More then likely Motubo was good at his strong side forward and many, many emulated it. Like most intiial learning in ones training.

 

[John Bishop]

Just a little Question o.k?

I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
Todd

I don't know if your refering to Asian arts in general, or the arts that came down from Kajukenbo. Example: Karazenpo, Shaolin Kempo, Cerio's Kenpo, etc.
If you are talking about Kajukenbo and it's offshoots, then yes boxing stances, techniques, and punches were put into the system in Hawaii.
All of the Kajukenbo founders boxed to some extent. Like on the mainland, boxing offered a chance for poor kids to escape poverty.
The founders felt at the time, if they were to encounter a "trained fighter" he most likely had boxing training, since martial arts were so rare.
So "punch counters" and some "grab arts" were designed against a boxers right cross, hook, and left jab-right cross combinations.
They also felt that a boxers fighting stance offered more mobility, and was suited better for close-in fighting.
So Kajukenbo hand strikes have the common karate thrust punches and snap punches. But you also have the western boxing punches and combinations, along with the limb destruction cutting type strikes (empty hand) from escrima.

 

[RRouuselot]

Todd wrote: Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.

Hi Todd, I heard the same thing. The powers-to-be at the time in Okinawa thought Motobu too crude and unpolished. I'm not saying that's true but that's just what I've read. Politics, politics, politics..................

Here some facts about that subject.

Funakoshi was never formally asked to go to Tokyo. He had a friend living and working at one of the Universities in Tokyo and upon hearing that Funakoshi was going to be transferred (Funakoshi was a school teacher and they are often rotated in Japan) to some “podunk” little island off the coast of Okinawa his suggested he come and work in Tokyo.
Funakoshi being rather talented at expanding the truth made it sound as if he was “invited” to teach karate on the mainland. (Funakoshi was a notorious liar and was punked out for it on occasion). IF he was invited then one has to ask why was he a janitor/handyman….instead of being giving a job as some sort of “coach”…..The reason being is that there was never an Okinawan “committee” that decided to send Funakoshi….he just accepted his friends invite.
One reason, and probably the ONLY reason it was better for Funakoshi to go than Motobu is the fact that Motobu didn’t speak Japanese and Funakoshi did which would have made teaching karate fairly difficult for Motobu.

Motobu has got to be one of the most misunderstood figures in Okinawan karate.
He was not formally taught his “family style” because he was the son of his father’s mistress instead of the son of his father’s wife making him only half brothers with Choyu Motobu. He did however train with his uncle….I have no idea what “style” it was though. Being born out of wedlock is one of the reasons he did not receive the school education his ½ brother s did.
Being the offspring of someone’s mistress most likely gave him some problems growing up in an old fashioned society like the Edo and Meiji eras. I have read that Motobu never actually started a fight but never backed down from one either. I don’t know how true that is but he did tell his students to always be polite and courteous.

So there was no “committee”, no “politics” to decide whether Motobu or Funakoshi should go and teach in Tokyo.
I have to say that Funakoshi did have 2 advantages over most Okinawans. 1. He could speak Japanese and it made it easier for him to be accepted by the Japanese, and also made it easier for him to spread rumors and lies about Motobu which he did by the way. And 2. there was the WWII fast approaching which meant martial instruction was in demand. Funakoshi was in the right place at the right time. It’s kind of funny that many of Funakoshi’s students switched over and trained with Motobu instead. It most likely pissed Funakoshi off to no end.

 

[James Kovacich]

Here some facts about that subject.

Funakoshi was never formally asked to go to Tokyo. He had a friend living and working at one of the Universities in Tokyo and upon hearing that Funakoshi was going to be transferred (Funakoshi was a school teacher and they are often rotated in Japan) to some “podunk” little island off the coast of Okinawa his suggested he come and work in Tokyo.
Funakoshi being rather talented at expanding the truth made it sound as if he was “invited” to teach karate on the mainland. (Funakoshi was a notorious liar and was punked out for it on occasion). IF he was invited then one has to ask why was he a janitor/handyman….instead of being giving a job as some sort of “coach”…..The reason being is that there was never an Okinawan “committee” that decided to send Funakoshi….he just accepted his friends invite.
One reason, and probably the ONLY reason it was better for Funakoshi to go than Motobu is the fact that Motobu didn’t speak Japanese and Funakoshi did which would have made teaching karate fairly difficult for Motobu.

Motobu has got to be one of the most misunderstood figures in Okinawan karate.
He was not formally taught his “family style” because he was the son of his father’s mistress instead of the son of his father’s wife making him only half brothers with Choyu Motobu. He did however train with his uncle….I have no idea what “style” it was though. Being born out of wedlock is one of the reasons he did not receive the school education his ½ brother s did.
Being the offspring of someone’s mistress most likely gave him some problems growing up in an old fashioned society like the Edo and Meiji eras. I have read that Motobu never actually started a fight but never backed down from one either. I don’t know how true that is but he did tell his students to always be polite and courteous.

So there was no “committee”, no “politics” to decide whether Motobu or Funakoshi should go and teach in Tokyo.
I have to say that Funakoshi did have 2 advantages over most Okinawans. 1. He could speak Japanese and it made it easier for him to be accepted by the Japanese, and also made it easier for him to spread rumors and lies about Motobu which he did by the way. And 2. there was the WWII fast approaching which meant martial instruction was in demand. Funakoshi was in the right place at the right time. It’s kind of funny that many of Funakoshi’s students switched over and trained with Motobu instead. It most likely pissed Funakoshi off to no end.

Robert, you seem differant these days. Much more composed. I'm glad to see you're still willing to share you're knowledge.

 

[RRouuselot]

In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer. Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!

T-

There is a nice story behind that. I have it in a book that was written in Japanese....sorry I am not going to translate it and write it here.....however, I think Grahm Noble wrote something about it. You might do a GOOGLE search.

 

[RRouuselot]

Just a little Question o.k?

I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
Todd

Untrue.

Most arts emphasized both right and left side training…..in fact since most Asian countries are right hand dominate many MA people would train the left side more. For example Motobu would hit the makiwara more times with his left than right because he felt his left side was weaker than his right.
He stated that it didn’t make sense to train your strong side; you should train the weak side to make it stronger.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) I saw a copy of that Todd. He was posed in the opening high/middle block position of Karazenpo's fourth form. (#4 kata in Shaolin Kempo Karate, #1 Pinan in Okinawan karate and Heian #2 in Shotokan). 2) From what I researched when Motobu saw it, he was livid and went looking for Funakoshi. Allegedly they had an encounter and Funakoshi came out on the short end of it. Like I said before, I don't know how accurate these stories are but that's what's out there so I still remain open minded on them. 3) Also, it's been said the boxer was a heavyweight 'Russian Boxing Champion'. Russian- yes, heavyweight-I believe so, Champion-embellished, from what I understand he was a carnival boxer, still a tough dude I bet since he did take on all challengers.


4) The information I have is the relationship of Mitose's Kenpo with Nabura Tanamaha (Motobu lineage) and Robert Trias (Motobu lineage). ………..

1) Actually it is Pinan #4 in both Okinawan karate and Shotokan
2) Something like that……
3) There are several stories….1 was that he was Irish, another said he was American, and another said Russian…either way he died as a result of the fight.
4) Trias never studied under Motobu. Although he claims to have in Bruce Haines book.


I have a photo of that Funakoshi pose so if someone could "learn me" how to put up a photo on here I will post it.

 

[Karazenpo]

1) Actually it is Pinan #4 in both Okinawan karate and Shotokan
2) Something like that……
3) There are several stories….1 was that he was Irish, another said he was American, and another said Russian…either way he died as a result of the fight.
4) Trias never studied under Motobu. Although he claims to have in Bruce Haines book.


I have a photo of that Funakoshi pose so if someone could "learn me" how to put up a photo on here I will post it.

Hi Robert, yes, the opening sequence in Shaolin Kempo's kata #4 and pinan #4 are the same, except the kata is closed hand and the pinan is open and is considered a 'passive' block. It's been a while since I saw that picture, I thought it was close handed. I stand corrected but it is the high/middle guard position, correct? Mitose also claimed Motobu was his 'master' but some give him the benefit of the doubt that he mean't he was his senior and head of the kenpo system that he studied under Tanamaha. Sort of like Sijo Gascon is the founder and head of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, so anyone studying that art could refer to him as his master. I want to say in the back of my mind that I heard that boxer died but it was only in one reference I read. Do you have any more info. on that? Plus, if I recall, no one came up with his name either. Robert, I had the feeling Funakoshi, and I'll just say 'embellished' things a little, and here's why. He stated in one of his book or books that he used his karate twice. Once when he was younger. Something about he was a young man and walkiing on a deserted road in the rain one night and someone came running up from behind and he threw out some hand strike on the guy. Later, in the morning, the guy was found in a ditch or ravine or something, seriously hurt. Bear with me, I'm paraphrasing a little because I don't have a clear recollection of it but that was the jist of it. The other was in his later years, in his early 80's and this one is very clear to me. Some dude grabbed his umbrella and he did a technique from #5 pinan/hiean. Now, my feelings are this. Anyone that has to reach that badly to show that he used his martial art in reality with those 'lame' examples is 'a little' insecure in his real world ability. In other words, he has none, lol. The insecurity could have come from Motobu who was well known for his extra-curricular activities, so to say, lol. Hey, I'm not saying he didn't pioneer his system and wasn't good at his art but 'paper tiger' seems to come to mind as far as his fighting prowess goes. This isn't a slam, Shotokan's a very powerful martial art and I respect it, I'm just calling it like I see it. One other thing Robert, what's the scoop, as the story goes, of the Japanese government picking the godan rank to award him so he would have rank when he went to Japan. We have been told that back then that made the 5th dan the 'pinnacle' of karate rank. Later, it was raised to 7th and finally to 10th. To the best of your knowledge, is this true or more B.S.? About Robert Trias, he is of the Motobu lineage, I firmly believe that but I also vaguely recall him stating he had also been a student of Motobu, I must have read it in Bruce Haines' book but I can't recall. Thanks. Professor Joe

 

[RRouuselot]

Funakoshi’s 5th dan came from the Butokukai in Kyoto, one of his students named Konishi was a ranked member of that organization through some sword art and did some lobbying to get him a 5th dan. I have never seen Funakoshi was given any rank by the Japanese Gov. . Prior to his rank from the Butokukai Funakoshi had no rank.