Cerio Pinions/Pinans

[BallistikMike]

Hello everyone. I have a question about the Pinions/Pinans that were developed by Nick Cerio and then used by Fred Villari in his Shoalin Kempo.

If you do a search here in the forums you come to find out that Nick Cerio used Taikaiyo <sp?> 1 as pinion one, combination of T2 & T3 as pinion two and then learned pinan/heian 3, 4, & 5 from Mas Oyamas book and used them as pinion 3, 4 & 5 in his system.

My question is this. I have looked in the Mas Oyama book and they only have hein 4/5 in there nothing about heian 3. They have Taikyo 1 & 3, Heian 4 & 5 and saifa kata in the book. Where did Pinion 3 come from if this indeed the case?

Anyone know?

 

[dsp921]

The origin of Professor Cerio's katas are explained here:
http://www.studiosunis.com/en/sec_art/art_ori.asp

 

[BallistikMike]

Thanks for the link. I think it is great.

Heian/Pinan 4 & 5 are the only Heian/Pinan Shown in the Mas Oyama book however. Throughout this website it is stated that 3 - 4 & 5 were learned from Mas Oyamas book and brought into the Karazenpo System by Nick Cerio as Pinion 3 - 4 & 5.

I just want to understand how he came up with Pinion 3 from the book by Mas Oyama when it isnt even in the book.

Taikyoku One - Pinion One in the original Nick Cerio System and Later SKK.

Taikyoku #2 & #3 are combined along with Kung Line drills Nick Cerio learned in Hawaii from Prof. Chow. to make Pinion Two

Pinion Three is supposed to have been learned from Mas Oyamas book as Heian 3/ Pinan 3. The books I have seen and the two I have do not have hein 3 in them at all.

That is my question. Is the claim of learning Pinan 3 - 4 & 5 from Mas Oyamas book true or false since I can not find pinan/heina 3 in any of them various prints). Only heian 4 & 5 which became Pinion 4 - 5.

I understand where he went with renaming and revising the kata he learned as well as creating his own.

I just want to dig a little deeper is all. I have been researching the SKK / Cerio / Karazenpo line from Kajukenbo for nearly a year now. I found a glitch and just want to clarify it.

Thankyou.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i have an Oyama book which has pinan 2,3,4,5 in it........its called mastering karate.

 

[Gene Williams]

So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

gene, have you ever heard of any of these guys before?
or is this all news to you?

 

[The Kai]

Yes Prof Cerio was probably the first person ever to change how a Kata was done. Now they would'nt ever dream of doing that in okinwa

 

[BlackCatBonz]

ever......or practice another art and call it something different

 

[BallistikMike]

i have an Oyama book which has pinan 2,3,4,5 in it........its called mastering karate.

I have this book "Mastering Karate" and it doesnt have Pinan/Heian 2 or 3 in it. It has only 4 and 5.

If you are thinking that the Taikyoku Kata are pinans that would be wrong. They show 1 and 3 in the "Mastering Karate" text. Also the last Kata is saiha or saifa I cant remember the spelling.

There are ony Two pinans/heians shown in the master text 4 and 5. Thats how they label them in Mas Oyamas text anyway.

Its why I want to clarify the names and numbering. I am not challenging anything.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

in my book which was printed in 1973, the pinan nidan kata starts on page 104 and ends on 107
sandan pages 108 to 111
yondan 112- 115
godan from 120-123

if someone has been telling you that pinan 2 and 3 in that book are taikyoku, then i have been practicing the wrong kata for the last 10 years.

 

[Harley Quinn]

So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...

Hi Gene,

I am not so sure that is the correct way of putting it, but hey no problem.
The thing is none of this stuff is that complicated, heck while I am doing some of the katas I change and at one point might go and do a way to the end of the another Kata. So what?
It only counts when you are being graded in or on that one kata.
You know to know one kata is to know lots of other parts of other kata.
I eat beef well done, so should you or everyone else eat like I do?
When we go to dinner? No, but if the menu is only one thing that is what you eat.

All Escrima/Kata is like chicken, only different flavor. GM Estalilla FMA Kabaron

I think that pretty well sums it up, if in rome do as the romans do. But if I am in my garage I do what I want to do. Does that make me a wannabe? Not at all. But I am a good practioner, I read a lot and exercise in many different arts. I could easily become a professor in my own art form. But for what? NOT.

But your failure to show respect for some of the greats is in it's self showing your, like I said, failure not theirs. IMHO xxoo

Harley

 

[Gene Williams]

I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.

and what makes you so great as to be able to recognize it?
this is a serious question mods.......so if you want to split the thread please do so.

 

[Gene Williams]

and what makes you so great as to be able to recognize it?
this is a serious question mods.......so if you want to split the thread please do so.

I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally the Kajukenbo forms were named "Pinion" referring to the name "Pinan". IMHO this was done erronueously and created confusion. The Kajukenbo forms were later renamed "Palama sets" by Sijo Emperado.

Professor Cerio adopted his "Pinan" series from the Kyokushin enterpretation which was originally based on Mr. Funakoshi's teachings. Originally the Pinan1 (Heian2) was done as in the Japanese and Okinawan traditions. Later on this kata was changed to the present form following the Taikyoku's enbusen. Again this has caused confusion among various factions and Ihmo it should not have been done this way.

Using an exiting kata name for a newer kata with a different enbusen creates problems. Shaolin Kempo's and Cerio kenpo's versions of Pinan 1 and 2 should really be referred to as "Basic forms" (kihon no kata) since they were based on Taikyoku series. Pinan (3,4,5) of these disciplines follow the original enbusen and techniques with minor differences. In my school we follow this set up, and for this reason my students can compete in the traditional arenas as well.

I also reviewed the Studio Uni's kata lineage explanation and found a few discrepancies. The Cerio's "Circle of the Tiger" was based on Karazenpo's "Kata 1". The techiques and the enbusen were rearranged by Mr. Cerio. The "Statue of the Crane was based on the Korean version (Tang Soo Do) of the OKinawan kata "Rohai" devised by Mr. Pesare and Mr. Cerio.


Salute.

 

[Gene Williams]

It would be better if non-traditional martial artists, like Cerio, et al, who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata. Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone. They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata. So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.

 

[kenmpoka]

Mr. Williams,

Within the factions of the so called traditionalists, many variations of the same kata exist. Even the bunkai varies from teacher to teacher.....Your attacks/comments are not well founded with someone who's studied traditional arts for a very long time.

Salute.

 

[Gene Williams]

I was not talking about variations in traditional kata from ryu to ryu. All the various traditional versions are recognizably the same kata and developed through an internal logic based upon the lineage of the ryu and the kata. All traditional ryu recognize the different versions, and they are remarkably consistent from ryu to ryu. Variations in bunkai, while less consistent, are still recognizably based upon the internal logic of the kata and, in many instances, standard bunkai exist across ryu. Now, that is really different from some self-styled "master" playing with the traditional kata. Whatever Mr. Cerio is doing, it isn't traditional martial arts. But, just as long as you are having fun...watch out for the weed-eater, too, and don't step on the cat.

 

[marlon]

Please note Mr.Cerio is dead and so is not "do-ing" anything at this time. Mr.Cerio was evolving his kenpo and was bringing it more into line with traditional Okinawan systems. Inform yourself better before speaking as though you have passed a judgement. The 'pinans" that GM Cerio brought to his art he learned from Kyokushin...a fairly traditional art...so he was not making things up nor was he pullings things out of the air without foundation. Thank you for your time


Respectfully,
marlon