One against many, i.e. survive long enough to practise run-fu

Jean Marais

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So I've been at some JJ and some Aikido...and I got to think some more...very dangerous, thinking, you know. So I reckon most self defence situation will be when I'm out numbered, right...so why does no one actively train multiple aggressors defence on a regular basis... in any of the martial arts I've done, including karate...!?! This is the week point of JJ which focuses too much on the ground game...wasn't always like this, but due to the MMA success, stand up has taken a bit (too much) of a back seat. How about WC? It's obviously stand up focused, but do you train multiple aggressor scenarios, regularly?
 

K-man

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So I've been at some JJ and some Aikido...and I got to think some more...very dangerous, thinking, you know. So I reckon most self defence situation will be when I'm out numbered, right...so why does no one actively train multiple aggressors defence on a regular basis... in any of the martial arts I've done, including karate...!?! This is the week point of JJ which focuses too much on the ground game...wasn't always like this, but due to the MMA success, stand up has taken a bit (too much) of a back seat. How about WC? It's obviously stand up focused, but do you train multiple aggressor scenarios, regularly?
You may find it is just your instructor. I teach multiple attacker defence regularly in my Karate class. It is always trained in Krav and Systema classes and even Aikido regularly trains against multiple attackers. Not only do we train against multiple attackers but we also train against multiple attackers armed with different weapons. That way you need to determine priorities as well.
:asian:
 

Vajramusti

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So I've been at some JJ and some Aikido...and I got to think some more...very dangerous, thinking, you know. So I reckon most self defence situation will be when I'm out numbered, right...so why does no one actively train multiple aggressors defence on a regular basis... in any of the martial arts I've done, including karate...!?! This is the week point of JJ which focuses too much on the ground game...wasn't always like this, but due to the MMA success, stand up has taken a bit (too much) of a back seat. How about WC? It's obviously stand up focused, but do you train multiple aggressor scenarios, regularly?
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Good wing chun when taught and practiced well trains you for dealing with attacks from all directions. running is not always an option.
One has to learn all the principles and practice them....including a full repertoire of footwork, adjusting structure while maintaining balance and applying short power when needed
 

Dirty Dog

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So I've been at some JJ and some Aikido...and I got to think some more...very dangerous, thinking, you know. So I reckon most self defence situation will be when I'm out numbered, right...so why does no one actively train multiple aggressors defence on a regular basis... in any of the martial arts I've done, including karate...!?! This is the week point of JJ which focuses too much on the ground game...wasn't always like this, but due to the MMA success, stand up has taken a bit (too much) of a back seat. How about WC? It's obviously stand up focused, but do you train multiple aggressor scenarios, regularly?

I'm going to let others answer your actual question and address your assumption.

You are incorrect to think that being outnumbered is the norm. I see a lot of people in the ER who have been smacked around. And although I hear "There I was, walking along, minding my own business, when all of a sudden from out of nowhere, these 9 guys with baseball bats just leaped out and attacked me!" all the time, the reality is that it is fairly rare to see anyone who, when the truth comes out, wasn't in a one-on-one fight.

The vast majority are one-on-one, empty hands. Weapons of opportunity (beer bottles, etc) are the next most common. "Real" weapons less common. Many-on-one? Really uncommon.
 

drop bear

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In our case it would be dumb. You would last about three seconds once you got teamed up on and nobody wants that.
 

KPM

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The sentiment in this thread.....this is exactly why I prefer to think of Wing Chun as a combatives method and not as a "sparring" method. This is also why I think those that place such a heavy emphasis on success in Chi Sao or success in friendly sparring are just a little bit misguided.
 

Argus

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I'm going to let others answer your actual question and address your assumption.

You are incorrect to think that being outnumbered is the norm. I see a lot of people in the ER who have been smacked around. And although I hear "There I was, walking along, minding my own business, when all of a sudden from out of nowhere, these 9 guys with baseball bats just leaped out and attacked me!" all the time, the reality is that it is fairly rare to see anyone who, when the truth comes out, wasn't in a one-on-one fight.

The vast majority are one-on-one, empty hands. Weapons of opportunity (beer bottles, etc) are the next most common. "Real" weapons less common. Many-on-one? Really uncommon.

Anyone else find this really insightful?

Though I enjoy learning a combative art, and training in it earnestly, I never figured it would be all that relevant in terms of self-defense due to the likelihood of weapons or multiple aggressors.

Perhaps my training might be more useful than I thought it was!

Hopefully I'll never need to find out :p
 

tshadowchaser

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Not sure why this is in the Wing Chun area and not in general as the OP asks a general question.

That being said. I do not study Wing Chun but the system I was in for 30+ years had multiple attacker nights and yes sometimes sticks and chairs where in use. Fighting 2,3, 5, 10 on one was a normal night and NO they did not let up up if you went down you had to fight your way back up.
Bumps and bruising where the norm and if you missed a block you got hit. Yes there where instances of people getting hurt at times. BUT you need to remember I start studying back when thing where taught a little harder than most places would dare to tech today

some school still teach this way but not many
 

Buka

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Just did that very thing the last two nights. I originally learned multiples as a Law Enforcement course. It adapts well to self defense. I consider myself pretty good at it and offer free seminars to anyone interested.

If you like, I'll post what I think are the keys. Not really worth much in writing, though, you have to train it. I'm gone for the day now, but will get to it later if you're interested.
 

PiedmontChun

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At my school, the last 15 minutes or so of every class is Lat Sau / sparring of some type; the format changes but at least once a week is some form of multiple attackers. It's good for a lot of reasons: 1) it reinforces the more explosive WC steepping / footwork since you are moving around more dealing with more attackers and distance. 2) Teaches general fighting tactics not exclusively WC/WT like keeping one opponent between you an another would be attacker when possible, using them as human shield if needed, judging distance and angles to your advantage. 3) I could probably go on.
 

Cephalopod

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I'm going to let others answer your actual question and address your assumption.

You are incorrect to think that being outnumbered is the norm. I see a lot of people in the ER who have been smacked around. And although I hear "There I was, walking along, minding my own business, when all of a sudden from out of nowhere, these 9 guys with baseball bats just leaped out and attacked me!" all the time, the reality is that it is fairly rare to see anyone who, when the truth comes out, wasn't in a one-on-one fight.

The vast majority are one-on-one, empty hands. Weapons of opportunity (beer bottles, etc) are the next most common. "Real" weapons less common. Many-on-one? Really uncommon.

I have no personal knowledge of how things look in scenarios of true predatory violence.

When it comes to social violence, however, the most common scenario i've come across (outside the bars in Montreal as a younger man) always seems to look like this: 2 guys mouthing off at each other, escalating, escalating until someone throws a first punch. There are always bystanders, usually friends, who eventually pull the belligerents apart.

So in this sense, yes, it's a one-on-one fight.

But if one guy manages to lock in a rear naked choke or arm bar you better believe that the friends of the other are going to quickly go from being bystanders to kicking at the head of their friends' aggressor. But this is a rare case. Much more common is few punches and kicks and a chaotic scuffle on the ground yielding busted noses and lips, road rash and, yes, the occasional broken-beer-bottle slashes.

My point is that while I agree it is unlikely I will be set upon by a pack of marauders, I still want a self defense strategy that allows me to disengage asap rather than going to the ground.
 

Cephalopod

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I found this to be a very interesting article about the Chinese political climate during the years that Ip Man worked in law enforcement. It puts forth a solid argument that 'gangland' abductions and ruthless interrogations were common and would start with one individual being ambushed by multiple attackers.
The article suggests that this influenced his approach to wing chun.
 
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Jean Marais

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This is very interesting. I'm an engineer. I like going with the statistics of things. I pretty much withdraw the entire thread :).

But I'm happy to hear everyones experience. I emailed my trainer to urge him to up the multiple attacker defence training backed by my previous arguments. He agrees with me to some extent. However, training multiple attacker defence only starts at brown belt :-(. If there is one thing I'm not a fan of, it is the TMA mind set of everything having to take a long time to get anywhere. I stopped believing that some time ago.
 

Cephalopod

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... However, training multiple attacker defence only starts at brown belt :-(. If there is one thing I'm not a fan of, it is the TMA mind set of everything having to take a long time to get anywhere. I stopped believing that some time ago.

Don't worry about it.
It is a lot of fun to act out full blown multiple attacker scenarios, and it does teach you some tactics as Piedmontchun pointed out.

However IMHO you can make a lot of progress just by training good mobility and awareness of your surroundings. Try light sparring with a friend in a small room with furniture in it. Or on a deck with plant pots. The possibilities are endless. Just don't break anything you can't afford to replace!
 

mook jong man

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In my experience with multiple opponent training , the thing that wears you out the most is the sheer amount of mobility that is required.
Time and time again , it was brought home to me that the type of footwork used most is a side to side shuffle that moves in a semi circle configuration.

Why is that the case you may ask?
Because you are forever attempting to avoid being caught in the middle and always striving to get to the flanks.
 

Hong Kong Pooey

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I'm going to let others answer your actual question and address your assumption.

You are incorrect to think that being outnumbered is the norm. I see a lot of people in the ER who have been smacked around. And although I hear "There I was, walking along, minding my own business, when all of a sudden from out of nowhere, these 9 guys with baseball bats just leaped out and attacked me!" all the time, the reality is that it is fairly rare to see anyone who, when the truth comes out, wasn't in a one-on-one fight.

The vast majority are one-on-one, empty hands. Weapons of opportunity (beer bottles, etc) are the next most common. "Real" weapons less common. Many-on-one? Really uncommon.

While I don't doubt your experience, I'd propose the theory that certain factors may determine how likely one is to be outnumbered.

Location - Big city dwellers are more likely to come into contact with gangs, robbers & muggers (who have been known to work in pairs or small groups) than country or small town dwellers.

Age & social habits - I like to think that my days of getting into monkey dancing and drunken bar fights are behind me (also in reference to Cephalopod's post)

Just some thoughts from my personal perspective, but may well be completely wrong!
 

Dirty Dog

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While I don't doubt your experience, I'd propose the theory that certain factors may determine how likely one is to be outnumbered.

Yeah, because I never considered any of these. :)

Location - Big city dwellers are more likely to come into contact with gangs, robbers & muggers (who have been known to work in pairs or small groups) than country or small town dwellers.

You don't find a lot of Level 1 Trauma centers in rural settings... I've never worked in a rural setting or level 3 Trauma center.

Age & social habits - I like to think that my days of getting into monkey dancing and drunken bar fights are behind me (also in reference to Cephalopod's post)

Sadly, the people I treat generally have NOT matured past the monkey dance stage. But they're still mostly one-on-one.

Just some thoughts from my personal perspective, but may well be completely wrong!

It's possible...
 

drop bear

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While I don't doubt your experience, I'd propose the theory that certain factors may determine how likely one is to be outnumbered.

Location - Big city dwellers are more likely to come into contact with gangs, robbers & muggers (who have been known to work in pairs or small groups) than country or small town dwellers.

Age & social habits - I like to think that my days of getting into monkey dancing and drunken bar fights are behind me (also in reference to Cephalopod's post)

Just some thoughts from my personal perspective, but may well be completely wrong!

The tactics and methods are pretty much the same.

The idea that one is predatory and one is not is a false assumption.

And personally you are better off getting robbed than bashed.
 
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