Super slow Siu Nim Tau (siu lam tau)

Kung Fu Wang

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Any 10 min+ SLT serves to develop "Yi" or mental intent.
Don't hold your breath and don't exaggerate it. Just breathe when you need to.
If you coordinate your movement with your breathing (not the other way around), I just don't see how you can do SLT for 10 minutes.

You can only do in 2 ways:

1. Hold your breath slow - it's unhealth.
2. Do both inhale and exhale in a single move (such as a punch) - you cannot coordinate your power generation such as "compressing" and "releasing" with your breathing.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are not good training.
 
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Danny T

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If you coordinate your movement with your breathing (not the other way around), I just don't see how you can do SLT for 10 minutes.

You can only do in 2 ways:

1. Hold your breath slow - it's unhealth.
2. Do both inhale and exhale in a single move (such as a punch) - you cannot coordinate your power generation such as "compressing" and "releasing" with your breathing.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are not good training. Do you guys even care about the training "2" at all?

Not in SLT. In SLT in my training it is about position, structure, stance, elbow, centerline control, center of gravity control, forward elbow projection. Power generation will be enhanced by the structure but that will be in greatly expounded in Chum Kiu training.
 

Eric_H

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I actually had a chance to meet and train with @Eric_H a little bit last weekend. Terrific guy and some really interesting stuff. I think we had a lot of common ground, until it came to Chi Sao and then our differences were clear. Unfortunately, we saved that for last and didn't have enough time to riddle it out, but it's clear that we just regard it as different exercises entirely.

Hopefully we'll get a chance to revisit that later this month. It's always great to connect with people in real life and even better when there are differences and they are cool.

Was good meeting you and your student @ShortBridge - I hope you'll look me up if/when you end up in SF!
 

Eric_H

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I'd definitely like to hear more about your very different types of chi-sau. Now I'm really curious. It's really cool that you can accept that you are doing different exercises rather than taking the "this is right and that is wrong" approach. By considering them different types of training, you leave yourself open to considering what the other drill can offer.

One of the interesting pieces in my line is our 5 wheel energy theory. It's more or less a retelling of five element theory, just viewed through a WC lens.

A lot of what I see other lines do is (from my perspective) specialize in one or two of those energies, particularly Cheung and Saat (Crash and destroy). One thing that I think is special about HFY is we look to be able to play all 5 roles, and neutralize all 5. This has allowed me to see most of what other lines and other arts do and understand why they are effective... and how to in turn rob them of what they need to be effective (assuming I have the skill to pull it off in time).

Tends to open the brain up a bit to say "This works under these circumstances" instead of "that's right/wrong"
 

Dirty Dog

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Yes of course I can , but that's not the way it should be trained.

I'm not about to argue about what you SHOULD do. It's not my style. My comment was strictly because you said you COULD not. And that would be weird.
 

APL76

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It's the other way around. You time your movement with your breathing.

A: How slow should I train my Taiji.
B: It depends on your breathing speed. When you just wake up in the morning, your breathing speed is slow, you do your Taiji slow. After you have run 5 miles, your breathing speed is fast, you do your Taiji fast.

To force your breathing speed is bad for your body.


Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in wing chun.

You do realise that while there might (and that's a huge might) be some principles that are universal in across Chinese martial arts, that does not mean that all Chinese martial arts adhere to the same set of principles right?

And you don't force any breathing speed in wing chun, that's the point; you simply try to breath naturally. Indeed if you are timing you movements and your breathing together it could be argued that its you who are advocating forcing your breathing speed.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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And you don't force any breathing speed in wing chun,
When you

- walk, you can breath naturally.
- run, your breath can be 2 steps inhale, 2 steps exhale which is not natural any more.

For those styles that

- only train 1 step 1 punch (such as Baji, Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, ), this will not be an issue.
- also train fast punches (such a WC, preying mantis, long fist, ), this can be an issue.

When you chase your opponent with your chain punches, what will be your natural breathing suppose to look like?

In the following clip, he throws 17 punches non-stop. Did he

1. hold his breath during these 17 punches?
2. exhale partially at any punch he may like.
3. exhale partially and equally at each punch?
4. ...

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in wing chun.
Are you saying that WC has no concern on this issue?

If a WC guy who stands in front of a heavy bag, throws punches as hard as he can, and also as fast as he can, how will his "natural breath" suppose to look like?
 

Dirty Dog

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When you

- walk, you can breath naturally.
- run, your breath can be 2 steps inhale, 2 steps exhale which is not natural any more.

You're exerting more, your tissues need more oxygen, and your body increases the respiratory rate/depth to provide it.
How is that not natural?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You're exerting more, your tissues need more oxygen, and your body increases the respiratory rate/depth to provide it.
How is that not natural?
Natural = not fixed, has freedom to change.
Not natural = fixed, cannot be changed.

When I run, no matter what speed that I may run, I only use 2 steps 1 inhale, 2 steps 1 exhale.

I have never done

- 1/2 step 1 inhale, 1/2 step 1 exhale,
- 1 step 1 inhale, 1 step 1 exhale,
- 3 steps 1 inhale, 3 steps 1 exhale,
- 4 steps 1 inhale, 4 steps 1 exhale,
- ...

That mean when I run, my breathing pattern is fixed (not natural).
 

Randy Pio

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I don't like to train MA slow. It makes me to feel old. When I see old people move in slow speed, it upsets me.

Am I the only person who feels this way?


What about Hei-Gong? That is the impression I get, from this thread. That folks are practicing this set, with Hei Gong.

-RP
 

APL76

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Natural = not fixed, has freedom to change.
Not natural = fixed, cannot be changed.

When I run, no matter what speed that I may run, I only use 2 steps 1 inhale, 2 steps 1 exhale.

I have never done

- 1/2 step 1 inhale, 1/2 step 1 exhale,
- 1 step 1 inhale, 1 step 1 exhale,
- 3 steps 1 inhale, 3 steps 1 exhale,
- 4 steps 1 inhale, 4 steps 1 exhale,
- ...

That mean when I run, my breathing pattern is fixed (not natural).

When you run do you time your breathing with your footfalls? Or do you just breath, irrespective of it being rapid or slow, irrespective of the timing of your footfalls, just breath as your body needs you to breath, i.e. breath naturally?

Wing Chun, as I learned both Yip Man and Yuen Kay San versions of it, indeed does have an interest in the way you breath = Naturally; not timed with movements. It's as simple as that. If you are training hard and are breathing faster, you just breath faster, you still don't time your movements with it, you simply breath naturally. If that means fast and deep from exertion, then that is entirely naturaly. You don't time it with your movements. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.
 

wckf92

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How do you train your breathing for

- 1 step 1 punch.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 3 punches.
- ...

Dude...I already stated it pretty clearly: NATURALLY. In other words, I inhale when I need to, exhale when I need to. It is not something I give conscious thought to. It happens all by itself.
 

Martial D

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This WC forum has been really dead lately, but I suspect that there are still a few of us WC die-hards lurking about so I thought I'd throw out a few things that have been on my mind for general discussion.

One thing that a student has asked me about is the traditional practice of doing Siu Nim Tau (as it is spelled in my WT/VT lineage) at a super-slow speed, especially the first third of the form involving the "saam pai fut" movements (the repeated centerline extensions and retractions of tan and fook sau).

Now in our group, these movements are always done fairly slowly in comparison to the rest of the form, with each extensions taking between 3 and 5 seconds each, and the retractions equally as long. That is to say they are done at roughly the speed shown in the clip below taken from a closely related lineage.


However, sometimes people practice these initial movements at an extremely slow pace, taking five minutes or more for each extension. And I've heard stories of Grandmaster Yip taking as long as 15 minutes extending the tan-sau. The justifications for this practice often include building focus, concentration, superior structure and, when combined with proper breathing, as a form of meditative chi-gung exercise.

In the past, I have tried this, spending up to about two minutes on each extension, however, I've never made it a regular part of my own training, and certainly, have never made it a regular part of my classes. For one thing, our class time is just too limited. And for my own part, I'm way too undisciplined and ADD to train that way consistently! Besides that, over the years I have become increasingly skeptical about some of the more mystical claims made regarding chi in TCMA.

So my question is, do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT, and what do feel are the practical benefits? ...Or on the other extreme, do some of you spend less time doing SNT at all, as you have progressed further in WC/WT/VT?

We always opened the class with a slow slt, and ended with a faster one. Sometimes the tan fook segment would take upwards of ten minutes.

I actually liked it, and still do it most mornings. I find it puts your mind into tune with your body.
 

APL76

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Another question is do people do part of SLT slowly and then part of it fast?

We do the Sam Bai Fat section slowly but then do the rest fast. Obviously when you practice it it can, and should, be done at different speeds to learn it, refine it and so on. But for us the correct way to do the SLT is with Slow Sam Bai Fat and fast through the rest of it.
 

Danny T

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One of the things I see many untrained do is 'hold' their breath when exerting heavily. To help them we teach them to exhale by making a sound. With wing chun the practitioner is taught to be relaxed and only exerting heavily when needed. Therefore to allow the body to just breathe naturally as it needs. We don't force breathing. As the wc practitioner exerts greater amounts of energy the body's own natural mechanisms as designed will increase the breathing rate. Just as it will in any other physical endeavor.
 

Danny T

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Another question is do people do part of SLT slowly and then part of it fast?

We do the Sam Bai Fat section slowly but then do the rest fast. Obviously when you practice it it can, and should, be done at different speeds to learn it, refine it and so on. But for us the correct way to do the SLT is with Slow Sam Bai Fat and fast through the rest of it.
Slowly at times, moderately at times, quickly at times, and building up to going as quickly as one is able. More for just something to differently. The drill attacks and countering do more for quickness development than doing the form.
 
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