Dual Martial arts advice needed: see body for details

Addsplendor

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Okay, so I'm looking to do two martial arts: one impractical, one practical for self-defense and additional personal development.

The definite impractical:
Capoeira. No question here. I'm in love with the art and want to devote myself to it. Been to some classes a little far from me but will soon have access to more nearby in-person training to attend regularly.

Now, here's where I need assistance:

I am having difficulty choosing between the following as the practical martial art to supplement my studies(based on what is available in my area). I would like to learn Sambo or Judo but neither will be available locally. The appeal of those two being that they are hybrid, well-rounded martial arts with standing, grappling, etc.

Here are the choices I've narrowed it down to according to local availability:

Gracie Jiujitsu: includes standing, punching and ground fighting

Hapkido: for its joint locks and pain compliance. Love that it's sort of the "anti-martial art" and focused on the redirection of attacks...Not sure how effective it is long-term so please let me know you're opinion on this.

Combat Kuntao: not merely ordinary Silat. There isn't much of a consensus on this one because most people online who talk about it refer only to general Silat, which is a generalized name for Indonesian martial arts, whereas this one is specific...from what I can gather it is sort of an older, Indonesian Krav Maga-esque boxing martial art.

Combat Kuntao in particular, like Hapkido, emphasizes pain compliance and joint locks but also pressure points and nerve strikes as well as striking.

Is brutal and seems to be a hands-on self-defense system as per a link listed on my Local dojo's website

Probably my top choice as of now with Gracie JJ being a close second, though I'm reaching out to the dojo to find out if, like Gracie JJ, they pressure-test it with in-class sparring.

Kali: A martial art that seems similarly brutal, and thought I'd drop that in here, as it is available locally, though probably my bottom of the list choice of these 4.

Please give me your thoughts and if you any ideas outside of these 4 I'd love to hear them.

Thank you!
 
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Instructor

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I can't comment on those other systems but Hapkido has worked out great for me. I've heard it can be hit and miss depending on the quality of the school, I got lucky (many years ago) and got a great Hapkido teacher. All things being equal, how much you enjoy the class and the teacher are probably as important or more important than which particular system you learn.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Both GracieJJ and Kali are good self-defense systems, so long as the Gracie system doesn't start every class on their knees, and the kali system remembers open-hand exists. If you could afford it, the two of them would actually work very well together, though I know that's not always doable particularly with capoeira in the mix.

I can't comment on hapkido or combat kuntao, however my general recommendation would be to go to each one and see which ones fit your vibe, and where they do the most pressure testing.
 
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Addsplendor

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Do the BJJ. It will flow better with the culture of capoeira.
So I just found out from that dojo (which seems highly reputable) that their Hapkido class actually integrates some Jiujitsu, which is promising. Also, they do spar, so that's also encouraging

But assuming I go with pure JJ over Hapkido, would your recommendation of BJJ equate with a thumbs-up for Gracie JJ?

My understanding is that Gracie differs from standard BJJ in that it includes striking and is more aimed at self-defense than competition...but Im a newbie to martial arts so I could definitely be wrong.

By the way, thank you to everyone who responded! Your answers are patient, kind and full of wisdom so I appreciate it.
 

drop bear

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So I just found out from that dojo (which seems highly reputable) that their Hapkido class actually integrates some Jiujitsu, which is promising. Also, they do spar, so that's also encouraging

But assuming I go with pure JJ over Hapkido, would your recommendation of BJJ equate with a thumbs-up for Gracie JJ?

My understanding is that Gracie differs from standard BJJ in that it includes striking and is more aimed at self-defense than competition...but Im a newbie to martial arts so I could definitely be wrong.

By the way, thank you to everyone who responded! Your answers are patient, kind and full of wisdom so I appreciate it.

Depends on the club.

Regardless. More people who do capo. Also do BJJ so you get more opportunities that way.

Basically it being the whole Brazil culture thing.

But yeah. The Gracie club should be pretty solid for self defence.
 

Tony Dismukes

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My understanding is that Gracie differs from standard BJJ in that it includes striking and is more aimed at self-defense than competition...but Im a newbie to martial arts so I could definitely be wrong.
Not really. It's the same art, just a marketing strategy by a certain set of schools.

In Brazil, it was mostly just called jiu-jitsu and the Gracie family were the predominant (but not the only) popularizers, advocates, and top teachers of the system.

When Rorion Gracie moved to the U.S., he trademarked the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and threatened to sue anyone else who used the term - even other members of the Gracie family. Eventually that trademark was invalidated after a court case which established that Carley Gracie had been using the term in the U.S. years before Rorion got here. However by that time most practitioners had moved on to using the generic term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" for the style and more specific personal names (i.e. Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, etc) for individual gyms or associations.

So now the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" name is pretty much available to anyone who wants it, but it's mostly used by schools associated with Rorion and his sons Ryron and Rener.

As BJJ as spread in popularity, a certain percentage of schools have started focusing primarily on the most common competition rulesets, (which are focused on a certain approach to ground grappling), at the expense of a more well-rounded combative curriculum. This opened a marketing opportunity for Ryron and Rener to promote their "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" as more "street self-defense" oriented, since they require students to learn a certain combative curriculum at the beginning of their development. However they are certainly not the only school or association within the BJJ community to do so.

Your best bet to determine the focus of your local Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school is to visit them. Watch a few classes and ask questions of the instructor: how much time do they spend starting sparring on their feet? how much time do they spend training takedowns? how much time do they spend training with and sparring with strikes included?
 

Holmejr

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Kali: A martial art that seems similarly brutal, and thought I'd drop that in here, as it is available locally, though probably my bottom of the list choice of these 4.
Bottom of list? Well, I wouldnt be so fast. Each FMA style is different and if youre fortunate the school close to you teaches truly combative method. The speed and reflexes gained by practicing with a rattan stick or two is noticeable. Combine that with boxing hands, thai style elbows, knees/kicks and you can produce a formidable fighter. Might be worth it to check it out and ask questions.
 
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Addsplendor

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Bottom of list? Well, I wouldnt be so fast. Each FMA style is different and if youre fortunate the school close to you teaches truly combative method. The speed and reflexes gained by practicing with a rattan stick or two is noticeable. Combine that with boxing hands, thai style elbows, knees/kicks and you can produce a formidable fighter. Might be worth it to check it out and ask questions.
Hmm...I didn't realize it utiltized knees and elbows like Muay Thai. That's appealing.

Do you happen to know how that compares with Kuntao? Does it feature any grappling, takedowns, joint locks or pain compliance?

What has your experience been with this art, if any?
 
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drop bear

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Not really. It's the same art, just a marketing strategy by a certain set of schools.

In Brazil, it was mostly just called jiu-jitsu and the Gracie family were the predominant (but not the only) popularizers, advocates, and top teachers of the system.

When Rorion Gracie moved to the U.S., he trademarked the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and threatened to sue anyone else who used the term - even other members of the Gracie family. Eventually that trademark was invalidated after a court case which established that Carley Gracie had been using the term in the U.S. years before Rorion got here. However by that time most practitioners had moved on to using the generic term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" for the style and more specific personal names (i.e. Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, etc) for individual gyms or associations.

So now the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" name is pretty much available to anyone who wants it, but it's mostly used by schools associated with Rorion and his sons Ryron and Rener.

As BJJ as spread in popularity, a certain percentage of schools have started focusing primarily on the most common competition rulesets, (which are focused on a certain approach to ground grappling), at the expense of a more well-rounded combative curriculum. This opened a marketing opportunity for Ryron and Rener to promote their "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" as more "street self-defense" oriented, since they require students to learn a certain combative curriculum at the beginning of their development. However they are certainly not the only school or association within the BJJ community to do so.

Your best bet to determine the focus of your local Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school is to visit them. Watch a few classes and ask questions of the instructor: how much time do they spend starting sparring on their feet? how much time do they spend training takedowns? how much time do they spend training with and sparring with strikes included?

Where for example chuck Norris is Michardo jujitsu. Plus John Will and a few other BJJ pioneers.
 

Holmejr

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Do you happen to know how that compares with Kuntao? Does it feature any grappling, takedowns, joint locks or pain compliance?

What has your experience been with this art, if any?
Sorry, I have no knowledge of Kuntao. I have taken a few different flavors of Escrima, starting with Inosanto, Ted Lucay Lucay. Moving to Deribio when it was a pure art and now to Eskrido De Alcuizar. Ive been with the Eskrido group for 6 years and currently hold BB. We bang pretty hard and I believe our students, when they become proficient are street ready. We have a few police that appreciate the combative nature of what we do. Yes, pain compliance I experienced every session LOL. Unfortunately, I cant speak for what is available in your area.

Just so ya know, I have also studied JKD and Muay Thai before settling on the FMAs.

world Eskrido federation
OC, CA
 

Flying Crane

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Hmm...I didn't realize it utiltized knees and elbows like Muay Thai. That's appealing.

Do you happen to know how that compares with Kuntao? Does it feature any grappling, takedowns, joint locks or pain compliance?

What has your experience been with this art, if any?
My understanding of kuntao is that it is a pretty generic term that is in reference to a number of different Chinese methods brought to Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, and then influenced by local methods. So what would be found in the curriculum would depend on which kuntao. It is impossible to make blanket statements about it.
 

Flying Crane

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Okay, so I'm looking to do two martial arts: one impractical, one practical for self-defense and additional personal development.

The definite impractical:
Capoeira. No question here. I'm in love with the art and want to devote myself to it. Been to some classes a little far from me but will soon have access to more nearby in-person training to attend regularly.
I would not simply write-off capoeira as impractical. Like everything, it depends on how it is trained. With good training and a strong training ethic, one can definitely learn to fight with capoeira.
 

Rich Parsons

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...

Kali: A martial art that seems similarly brutal, and thought I'd drop that in here, as it is available locally, though probably my bottom of the list choice of these 4.

Please give me your thoughts and if you any ideas outside of these 4 I'd love to hear them.

Thank you!

As stated by others, this depends upon the school and I imagine it would for all schools.
Kali or FMA in general (Arnis / Escrima also) has weapons and empty hands with joint locks and throws and ...
So concentrate more on Blade
Some concentrate more on stick or blunt / improvised weapons
Some concentrate on throws or dirty boxing or empty hand

I only do the FMAs and I love them.

Good luck in your research
 

Koko

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For full-spectrum unarmed self-defense, I believe you really need to have both a striking game and a ground game. Maybe a straight-out MMA gym? Otherwise you might be looking at trying two to cover striking/ground (ie. muay thai and BJJ) but if you already want to pursue Capoeira, that's a pretty full schedule! Also, I think you can definitely gain skills that will help you with self-defense just by training Capoeira (for example, athleticism, endurance, strength, flexibility, anticipating your opponent, etc), even if, ya know, an Au isn't going to help you much if you get mugged someday.
 
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Addsplendor

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My understanding of kuntao is that it is a pretty generic term that is in reference to a number of different Chinese methods brought to Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, and then influenced by local methods. So what would be found in the curriculum would depend on which kuntao. It is impossible to make blanket statements about it.
Here is the Website for the dojo, which also features the Hapkido would also be considering and even Arnis(though the Kali is at another gym near me...let me know what you think.)
 
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Addsplendor

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For full-spectrum unarmed self-defense, I believe you really need to have both a striking game and a ground game. Maybe a straight-out MMA gym? Otherwise you might be looking at trying two to cover striking/ground (ie. muay thai and BJJ) but if you already want to pursue Capoeira, that's a pretty full schedule! Also, I think you can definitely gain skills that will help you with self-defense just by training Capoeira (for example, athleticism, endurance, strength, flexibility, anticipating your opponent, etc), even if, ya know, an Au isn't going to help you much if you get mugged someday.
I've considered MMA but ultimately want something that doesn't focus on fighting in weight classes.

The choices I've included are appealing to me because they feature practical striking and grappling.

Some here say that the Filipino MAs are the way to go, and BJJ/GJJ of course get lots of love universally on the internet...my only concern with that is it's mainly ground fighting and I'm unsure if I could get myself motivates to show up for it.

Hapkido, Kali/Aris and Kuntao are finding themselves the preference in that order.

I should also mention that the area I'm referring to is one I plan to relocate to soon, so before attending any classes, I wanted to ask around here.

I'm still not entirely sure which, of these 3, is the most practical and well-rounded.

Kali is said to be dangerous with weapons, but unsure how it fairs without.

Hapkido is said by some to be up there with GJJ by one martial artist online, assuming it's taught well and is pressure-tested with sparring.

I'm leaning away from kuntao, as like Krav Maga I'm unsure if it features regular sparring as opposed to demos...though I'm not positive
 

Flying Crane

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You are over-thinking it. Once you relocate, visit the schools, see if they will let you take some intro classes for free or low cost, try them out, and then go with the one that you find most interesting and you feel comfortable with the instructor and the group. You should not make a decision until then. If you dont find it interesting, you wont go and train.
 

Damien

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When looking at a club I always think that the instructor is just as important as the style. Do they look any good? Do they make up false credentials? etc. Then you can look at some videos of the style in action.

Had a quick look at the Kuntao link you posted. I'm always sceptical of any organisation that covers everything in camo..... But I'll give it the benefit of the doubt on that. That being said skimming through the head of the organisations very long list of accomplishments is a gold medal in the International Police Olympics in 1992. Should be easy enough to check right?

I can't find any reference to the International Police Olympics from a quick google. Some other events, including the World Police and Fire Games, but that happens every two years and was in 1991 and 1993.

He claims he was inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame in 2006. He's not in their list of 2006 inductees.

I then watch a quick video and the first thing he demonstrates is countering someone's jab by "destroying the bicep". AKA he blocks and punches their bicep at exactly the same time whilst they are mid punch. If they're teaching this kind of stuff, it's not an effective martial art. Even if you could pull it off, which is possible, if they are A LOT slower than you, or you can pre-empt it, trying to block in one direction and punch with a lot of force in the opposite direction just doesn't work from a biomechanics point of view, either you don't block hard enough and the punch still gets you in the face, or there is little power in your punch. The guy doesn't even move his body, it's all arm work. It's telling that when they drill it quickly the punch is like 2 feet from his face, it wouldn't work otherwise.


Please don't go to the Kuntao place.
 
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