Old School vs. New School

[MichiganTKD]

I spend a lot of time talking about traditional Tae Kwon Do practice versus the more modern version. What I'd like are some people's thoughts about what they think makes up old school TKD versus new school TKD.

For instance:

Old school-white uniform, black belt, school patch; new school-red, blue, gold, stars and stripes

Old school-listening to and trusting your Instructor; new school-leaving your Instructor after 2nd Dan to form your own style and organization.

Old school-practicing forms as your Instructor teaches them to you; new school-making up your own form to impress the judges at the next World Open

New school-electronic force gauges; old school-striking boards (makiwara or kwon go); REAL old school-practicing techniques on trees.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why, exactly, is the uniform color an issue, if it keeps students interested and excited about training?
Why are electronic guages bad?
Why are extemporaneous forms bad?
Americans, as a rule, hate to be told what to do so striking out on your own isn't exactly new school, just american.
Sean

 

[Marginal]

Why, exactly, is the uniform color an issue, if it keeps students interested and excited about training?

It's tacky.

Why are electronic guages bad?

Doubt they are. Most don't really measure what they're supposed to be measuring though.

Why are extemporaneous forms bad?

Because they are meaningless.

Americans, as a rule, hate to be told what to do so striking out on your own isn't exactly new school, just american.
Sean

It's lazy.

 

[Shu2jack]

Unless you care nothing about the spiritual/philosophical side of the art, then why have non-white uniforms? Not only is it tacky, but why do you have to rely on uniform color to keep kids interested? That says something, or at least suggests something, about the quality of the instruction.

I have never heard of electronic gauges. I have always preferred wood personally. Most schools in my organization have gone to plastic due to costs and it being environmentally safe, but wood in my opinion is better. People can break all the plastic boards and hit all the pads they want, but when it comes to wood a lot of them choke and can't do it. It is a mental thing.

I have no problem with black belts making up their own form. To me, if a martial art is supposed to be an expression of one's self, then one should design a form that represents him. His physical limitations, mentality, agressiveness, his tone, etc. As long as his/her instructor keeps a close eye on the student when designing his form it can help a student gain more insight into their art.

As for striking out on your own, the word "loyalty" comes to mind. There is nothing wrong with opening up your own school and following under your instructor's rules and guidelines, but starting your own style/organization at 2nd degree is just crazy to me. If you can not follow your own instructor how can you expect your students to follow you?

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's tacky.



Doubt they are. Most don't really measure what they're supposed to be measuring though.



Because they are meaningless.



It's lazy.

Guages measure force, so your number means nothing persay, but you try for an higher number. Lots of things are tacky, like white uniforms with a black belt...(opinions). Creating forms have what ever meaning the creator intends; while your extemporaneous form may have no meaning, another person may attach a wealth of knowledge. Lazy? Some young Blackbelts work very hard, and acheive a great deal. Why is that lazy?
Sean :asian:

 

[Marginal]

Guages measure force, so your number means nothing persay, but you try for an higher number.

The only problem there is that it's not measuring effective force etc.

Lots of things are tacky, like white uniforms with a black belt...(opinions).

Nah. Anything featuring an American flag as an integral part of the design is tacky. Most fashion type'll tell you the same thing.

Creating forms have what ever meaning the creator intends; while your extemporaneous form may have no meaning, another person may attach a wealth of knowledge.

And yet most involve bellowing and lots of backflips... Zero meaning. Except to Paul Mitchel perhaps.

Lazy? Some young Blackbelts work very hard, and acheive a great deal. Why is that lazy?
Sean :asian:

If they're starting their own style, they've decided they've worked hard enough already.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Unless you care nothing about the spiritual/philosophical side of the art, then why have non-white uniforms? Not only is it tacky, but why do you have to rely on uniform color to keep kids interested? That says something, or at least suggests something, about the quality of the instruction.


I have no problem with black belts making up their own form. To me, if a martial art is supposed to be an expression of one's self, then one should design a form that represents him. His physical limitations, mentality, agressiveness, his tone, etc. As long as his/her instructor keeps a close eye on the student when designing his form it can help a student gain more insight into their art.

Kids are fickle and there are a lot of good traditional schools that have been forced to close there doors over money and fierce competition. There is a saying, "An ounce of logic is worth a ton of tradition". "Tacky" just isn't a valid reason. Say something truly negative about colored uniforms. The video game industry comes out with a new game every month and they are your competition. Let a kid be cool for God's sake. One should design a form to work on any given aspect of the martial arts: high kicks, low kicks high & Low kicks, Knife defenses, stick defenses ect.
Sean

 

[Marginal]

If you're trying to outmatch GTA, might as well drop the D from TKD.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The only problem there is that it's not measuring effective force etc.



Nah. Anything featuring an American flag as an integral part of the design is tacky. Most fashion type'll tell you the same thing.



And yet most involve bellowing and lots of backflips... Zero meaning. Except to Paul Mitchel perhaps.



If they're starting their own style, they've decided they've worked hard enough already.

Who is Paul Mitchel? "Most" is a mighty big word, perhaps "some" would be more appropriate. One shouldn't design a form without meaning, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't design a form. Not every uniform is designed to look like "Old Glory", as most fashion types will tell ya :asian: Finaly, do you have information or can you provide a link that says the eqipment doesn't measure "proper" force, or is this just your opinion?
Sean

 

[Marginal]

Paul Mitchel sponsors an open tournament that's routinely shown on ESPN 2. Features breaking, katas etc. The katas invariably are judged exclusively on number of acrobatic sequences and how loudly someone bellows. (Frequency is important too. Gotta bellow at least every three backflips or you lack "spirit".) These are typically the make up katas/forms one thinks of when they think new "MA". People spinning around like Jet Li Power Ranger hybrid wannabees.

None of the sequences have anything to do with their parent MA's.

The measurement of the "power" or "force" from a sensor can be acheived a few ways. One's through the use of a velicometer which measures the velocity of the impact. Does nothing at all to measure the force however, and the techniques used to get higher readings don't necessarially reflect more effective techniques. Another method is to gauge changes in pressure, but that bears similar drawbacks. Doesn't really differentiate between focused force vs diffuse force etc.

What is not a tacky uniform? I can't think of one team uniform that Century makes that doesn't look like garbage. Can't make anything out of rayon or silk without looking like a fool either. I can't see how switching between a blue and green dobak's really going to keep a kid's interest better than changing the belt every few weeks would already. Cammo, gold, puce, indigo, violet, mauve.... Sweet. 50th gup. Only 90 more belts go go. Catch 'em all!

 

[Shu2jack]

Kids are fickle and there are a lot of good traditional schools that have been forced to close there doors over money and fierce competition. There is a saying, "An ounce of logic is worth a ton of tradition".

Traditional does not have to equal "not fun". How does a flashy uniform help? How about focusing on improving your curriculum and how you teach so that the kids want to come back. Flashy uniforms will lose their appeal. Kids will usually want to move on to the next toy. But if you keep your curriculum exciting and you make the classroom upbeat and fun, yet maintain that discipline, then you school will be sucessful.

"Tacky" just isn't a valid reason. Say something truly negative about colored uniforms.

They suggest that they must distinguish themselves through colorful uniforms rather than skill or quality of what they teach. They scream "look at me". (No humility) They detract from what you are trying to learn and place an emphasis on what you look like.

The video game industry comes out with a new game every month and they are your competition. Let a kid be cool for God's sake.

A colored uniform makes you cool? Is that really the message you want to teach the kids? I have no problem with kids thinking TKD is cool, but you have to do it while still teaching the right message. "My uniform is cool because it is all different colors. TKD is awesome!" is not a good message and detracts from what they are learning.

One should design a form to work on any given aspect of the martial arts: high kicks, low kicks high & Low kicks, Knife defenses, stick defenses ect.

I agee, but the form must have a purpose and a direction, not for the purpose of showing off or being flashy. You wouldn't let a student spar without teaching him the rules, safty precautions, or the know-how so why would an instructor let a student create form without guidence? Especially to make sure they are doing it for the right reasons and they are going about it the right way.

 

[MichiganTKD]

New school is not necessarily bad. Electronic force gauges can serve a purpose in giving you a scientific, quantitative estimation of the amount of power you have. Also, you cannot bake a force gauge or buy a force gauge with lots of sand it it for easier breaking

As far as colored uniforms, Marginal and Shu2jack hit on exactly what I was implying. Colored uniforms are tacky and serve no real purpose except to impress the easily impressable. Tae Kwon Do is not supposed to be "cool". Tae Kwon Do is supposed to teach kids self defense skills, make their bodies stronger, and make them better people. One aspect, as both pointed out, is wearing white uniforms. This symbolizes humility-all of you are the same, differentiated only by belt rank and skill. This is why private schools use uniforms-no competition to outdo each other with fancier clothing

As far as forms, how exactly does a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dan black belt have enough experience and knowlege to develop a form that displays anything beyond superficial knowlege of technique. It's different if you are 8th-9th Dan, and have enough experience to put together forms with depth and philosophy behind them. Gen. Choi, HU Lee, Jhoon Rhee, and Hae Man Park come to mind.
All the BB forms I am aware of go much deeper, imparting historical and philosophical concepts beyond just technique. But traditional forms don't earn you points at tournaments.

As far as leaving your Instructor after 2nd Dan, one of the 5 Tenets of TKD is loyalty-staying with your Instructor and learning what he has to offer. We have Senior Instructors who have praciced TKD for 30 years who still follow our Grandmaster because they feel they are still babies. They do not feel they know all they need to know. Again, the humility and loyalty thing. If your Instructor is legitimate, why wouldn't you stay?

Keep in mind, not every facet of modern TKD is bad. I think the modern body armor we wear is much more comfortable than the old stuff

 

[Touch Of Death]

New school is not necessarily bad. Electronic force gauges can serve a purpose in giving you a scientific, quantitative estimation of the amount of power you have. Also, you cannot bake a force gauge or buy a force gauge with lots of sand it it for easier breaking

As far as colored uniforms, Marginal and Shu2jack hit on exactly what I was implying. Colored uniforms are tacky and serve no real purpose except to impress the easily impressable. Tae Kwon Do is not supposed to be "cool". Tae Kwon Do is supposed to teach kids self defense skills, make their bodies stronger, and make them better people. One aspect, as both pointed out, is wearing white uniforms. This symbolizes humility-all of you are the same, differentiated only by belt rank and skill. This is why private schools use uniforms-no competition to outdo each other with fancier clothing

As far as forms, how exactly does a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dan black belt have enough experience and knowlege to develop a form that displays anything beyond superficial knowlege of technique. It's different if you are 8th-9th Dan, and have enough experience to put together forms with depth and philosophy behind them. Gen. Choi, HU Lee, Jhoon Rhee, and Hae Man Park come to mind.
All the BB forms I am aware of go much deeper, imparting historical and philosophical concepts beyond just technique. But traditional forms don't earn you points at tournaments.

As far as leaving your Instructor after 2nd Dan, one of the 5 Tenets of TKD is loyalty-staying with your Instructor and learning what he has to offer. We have Senior Instructors who have praciced TKD for 30 years who still follow our Grandmaster because they feel they are still babies. They do not feel they know all they need to know. Again, the humility and loyalty thing. If your Instructor is legitimate, why wouldn't you stay?

Keep in mind, not every facet of modern TKD is bad. I think the modern body armor we wear is much more comfortable than the old stuff

We will just have to agreee to disagree that these new facets are somehow causing great harm. Forms help you practice basics without a partner. Deep historical meaning is secondary, really. A fancy uniform can be a present for reaching a certain rank, and used only in competition. Kids stay with Tae Kwon Do because it is cool, period. Its bennefits will rub off on them but you can't force traditional values down their throat. Have good one. :asian:
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

Agreed. Everyone has different perspectives.

 

[DragonFooter]

I don't know, for me new school...although easier, flashier, and quicker to get results, old school always gives something extra either physically or mentally

 

[Shu2jack]

As far as forms, how exactly does a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dan black belt have enough experience and knowlege to develop a form that displays anything beyond superficial knowlege of technique.

I agree with you to an extent. I agree that to be able to develop forms with depth takes a deep understanding of the techinques that requires decades of practice. Just imagine trying to create a set of froms for a system that need to build off of each other and progressively improve a students as they advance in rank as well as fit into the rest of the material being taught.

However, I think black belts can still gain something from creating their own forms. How does one gain deeper knowledge? By doing. Experiment by putting techniques together in a pattern to see how they can relate to each other and how they can be performed.

Also, forms are not designed to suit a particular person. Take me for example. I am a 21 year old 2nd degree with 10 years of TKD experience. Dispite the fact that I am young, flexible (though not as flexible as a lot of my counterparts in TKD), and in TKD I much prefer hand techniques. 75% of all techniques I throw while sparring, board breaking, whatever are hand techinques and I almost never jump kick while sparring. So why shouldn't I develop a small form to solely work on an area I am lacking (jumping and combination kicking) and a longer form to focus on an area I heavily use? This way I develop a form that works for me trains the techniques, movements, tempo, etc. that I like to work at. Plus it represents me, making it a very personal thing. In this way I believe creating your own form can be useful and help your training as well as keep things fresh and different.

That is just my opinion though. I am not trying to create the next best form. I am merely trying to create a form to help me get better.

 

[Marginal]

I'm not really sure why you'd have to create a form to do that though. Might as well just run through some shorter drills etc. I've been working on getting my hands better, but I don't need to revamp a pattern to accomplish that. I just hit a heavy bag, working through various combinations etc...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with you to an extent. I agree that to be able to develop forms with depth takes a deep understanding of the techinques that requires decades of practice. Just imagine trying to create a set of froms for a system that need to build off of each other and progressively improve a students as they advance in rank as well as fit into the rest of the material being taught.

However, I think black belts can still gain something from creating their own forms. How does one gain deeper knowledge? By doing. Experiment by putting techniques together in a pattern to see how they can relate to each other and how they can be performed.

Also, forms are not designed to suit a particular person. Take me for example. I am a 21 year old 2nd degree with 10 years of TKD experience. Dispite the fact that I am young, flexible (though not as flexible as a lot of my counterparts in TKD), and in TKD I much prefer hand techniques. 75% of all techniques I throw while sparring, board breaking, whatever are hand techinques and I almost never jump kick while sparring. So why shouldn't I develop a small form to solely work on an area I am lacking (jumping and combination kicking) and a longer form to focus on an area I heavily use? This way I develop a form that works for me trains the techniques, movements, tempo, etc. that I like to work at. Plus it represents me, making it a very personal thing. In this way I believe creating your own form can be useful and help your training as well as keep things fresh and different.

That is just my opinion though. I am not trying to create the next best form. I am merely trying to create a form to help me get better.

Exactly! A form can be created and discarded in the course of a week or even a day. Its just a dance like routine to help you work through some ideas. Drills are boring but also effective. Naming it and claiming it is the next best thing, is where you step on toes and that is really what this is all about isn't it? Let the official forms remain sacred and play around with your art all you want on your own.(music helps)
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm not really sure why you'd have to create a form to do that though. Might as well just run through some shorter drills etc. I've been working on getting my hands better, but I don't need to revamp a pattern to accomplish that. I just hit a heavy bag, working through various combinations etc...

I suggest disposable forms; because, drills are boring. :asian:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Our school is old school by those definitions. But we only bow to the American flag. Our Christian master does not believe in the yin/yang symbol of the Korean flag. And we have promotional blue and red uniforms. Alot of families achieve belts together and wear the same color uniform. I realize it is not old school but I don't think it detracts from the spirituality of traditional TKD to wear a uniform that is colored. The "power rangers" uniforms of tournaments are another matter. Then they just become costumes for entertainment.

This is really about change. TKD is changing its face. It has been basically the same for hundreds of years, its traditions and values handed down and followed as closely as possible to keep it as valuable as it was when it was incepted even though it has split into kwans, ITF, WTF.

I also think it is the ego that splits away from their master too soon but it is also about the young wanting change. Older people like me do not like change, because we have come to realize that all change is not good. I do the same Kwang Gae/BB form for tournaments. But the guy who wins it doesn't do one difficult kick just yells alot and looks good in his own made up form. I prefer to try to perfect one form the way my master would want it to be done. Its a better gauge of skill to do the same form as the next person.

All these years, all these gadgets ie force gauges weren't necessary. I brought one to school, it was interesting for awhile, but not reliable all the time. I know when I break three boards what force was used. That is the old force gauge. But technology moves on and there will always be a newer, possibly better way to do something.

Change will come, its inevitable. But I hope more slowly and carefully. I truly hope that TKD would become unified, not to lose tradition but to keep it. I would not like to think that tradition, the tenets, and old ways the masters taught would get lost in the struggle just to change for change sake. Then one day we would wonder what went wrong - why isn't it working anymore?