OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[drop bear]

True! We should all have learned BJJ!

We had a Brazil top team guy pretty much start our MMA club. And the dude was fresh off the boat from Rio. And we also have really good karate here.

Anyway at the time we were trying to get some inter club sparring going. But it took a lot of convincing to explain to our coach it was not going to be a dojo storm. Just an open mat.

It is a Brazil thing rather than a bjj thing that one.

By the way out local karate recently took away a national title so a shout out to Mr thighs thruppy.
National title is 19 years in the making | Whitsunday Times

 

[RTKDCMB]

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

There was also Kimo (who only had back yard brawling experience at the time) who fought Royce Gracie and even though Gracie won he came off more beat up.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Not really. I was just relaying a few personal experiences of my time in TKD and Karate.

Which is extremely limited in the grand scheme of things.

 

[MJS]

I think you're missing the context of drop bear's original complaint. I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread, since I think many people responding have missed the explanation:





Without this context it gets confusing to understand what drop bear is getting at.

Ah, OK...well, now that I read that, yes, it makes more sense to me. Thank you!

FWIW, I think that having those things that were mentioned, ie: de-escalation, escape, evasion, etc, are key elements, in SD.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, OK...well, now that I read that, yes, it makes more sense to me. Thank you!

FWIW, I think that having those things that were mentioned, ie: de-escalation, escape, evasion, etc, are key elements, in SD.

Super tricky to find a system of that that works though. Deescalation works because there is a real risk in a fight. Training has to come from that and can't be lab tested as easily as technique.

Deescalation trained in a gym is usually training in ambush and counter ambush.

So saying deescalation is good is one thing saying you train a viable system of it is another.

 

[MJS]

Super tricky to find a system of that that works though. Deescalation works because there is a real risk in a fight. Training has to come from that and can't be lab tested as easily as technique.

Deescalation trained in a gym is usually training in ambush and counter ambush.

So saying deescalation is good is one thing saying you train a viable system of it is another.

Thing is, those aspects of SD are rarely taught in the average martial arts class. They cover what I call the 'during' phase...that's it. They show you what to do when an attack is happening, but rarely talk about the "before' or the 'after', which are just as important. These things are not taught either because the inst. doesnt know what to do, or because they feel they're not important. Fortunately, there are people out there, that are capable of teaching this. I train under some of them. There are people on this forum that teach it. They're out there.

 

[drop bear]

Thing is, those aspects of SD are rarely taught in the average martial arts class. They cover what I call the 'during' phase...that's it. They show you what to do when an attack is happening, but rarely talk about the "before' or the 'after', which are just as important. These things are not taught either because the inst. doesnt know what to do, or because they feel they're not important. Fortunately, there are people out there, that are capable of teaching this. I train under some of them. There are people on this forum that teach it. They're out there.

Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?

 

[MJS]

Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?

There isn't a system, per se, that specifically teaches this. It's not like I can say to you, "Go train Kenpo. They'll teach you a number of de-escalation/awareness methods." IMO, you're more likely to see this stuff taught by the RBSD guys or folks that are less traditional, in addition to those with a LE background.

 

[K-man]

Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?

De-escalation is really common sense although I'm sure there are multitudinous studies on the subject seeing it is relevant in so many fields. One that is quite good ...

Verbal De-escalation Techniques for Defusing or Talking Down an Explosive Situation - National Association of Social Workers

Awareness is mainly taught using the system taught by a police trainer called Jeff Cooper. Variations of 'Cooper's Colours' are in most standard references now.

Cooper?s colors: A simple system for situational awareness

Recently I read this article which someone on MT may have posted which I thought was very interesting.

Arousal and Performance: How Stress and Fear Affect Tactical Performance | The Art of Manliness

:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Tony and I have been talking via PM. I'm going to address his questions here in the thread since it is applicable.

To restate my question again in yet another way:

You can say kata is valuable even though it doesn't include de-escalation, or improvised weapons, and it's not normally practiced on stairs or in a car. It's intended for a different purpose - it contains concept and applications which can be broken down and applied in a variety of situations.

You can say sparring is not valuable for self-defense, because it does not include de-escalation, or (typically) improvised weapons and it's not normally practiced on stairs or in a car, and so it is missing essential elements of the self-defense equation.

The question is, how do you reconcile the disconnect between these two statements?

If you say kata is valuable even though it doesn't include de-escalation, etc because it teaches applications and principles which can be applied in a variety of settings other than the normal solo practice in the dojo, then why can't you say sparring can be valuable even though it doesn't include de-escalation, etc because it teaches applications and principles which can be applied in a variety of settings other than the normal one-on-one practice in the dojo?

If you say sparring is not valuable because it is missing all these real-world factors such as de-escalation, etc, then why can't you say kata is not valuable because it is missing all these real-world factors such as de-escalation, etc?

Kata

Kata can be a valuable training tool in many martial arts. Or it can be a class filler and what many consider a colossal waste of time. Why the two extremes? In my opinion it is how kata is viewed. Kata can be viewed peripherally as a set of movement consisting of blocks, punches and kicks. For some martial artists, this is perhaps all they need. For example, if the martial artist is focused on sport competition then generally blocks, punches and kicks are all they need for those competitions (generally speaking for those martial arts that utilize kata and then compete using those skills). There is another view of kata as I described on page 9 of this thread. That view is that each movement sequence is in fact a principle that demonstrates something beyond the block, punch, kick mode of training. My purpose is not to debate between the two in this post, only that these views are two that exist. This second view is the one I espouse due to my training and research. As I detailed on page 9, the opening movement in Pinan Shodan can be viewed as a shoulder lock specifically and as a principle of locking. This lock can be applied, as per the kata, from standing either from a punch or grapple and also applied on the ground or position of disadvantage.

This is the function of the kata as a training tool. It effectively catalogs a series of movements, application of those movements and principles that those movements can further be expanded into. It is a training tool that can be passed on effectively from instructor to student. Kata does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring kata because they aren't a function of the kata.

Bunkai

Kata can be broken down into bunkai. These can be drills using the specific movements demonstrated in the kata or they can be movements using the principle demonstrated in the kata. Again using the opening movement in Pinan Shodan, you can drill the lock from a punch defense, from a grapple as per the kata or ou can use in on the ground or a different angle using the locking principle demonstrated and then translated to other positions. This is the function of bunkai as a training tool.

How the bunkai drill is developed depends upon the goal of that training day as well as the experience of the student training the bunkai. It could be an individual drill using by rote to stress the movement/principle to someone just learning. This type of drill does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread because they aren't a function of this type of drill. Or, a drill could be set up using a series of bunkai as I described in the sparring thread i.e. scenario based training. This would utilize the additional factors I've detailed in the sparring thread because it is a function of the training.

Sparring

Sparring can have many definitions. I was careful to detail my definition in the sparring thread. It consists of two people, and only two people abiding by a specific rule set until a specific goal has been reached i.e. a point has been scored or a submission applied or some such other goal. What is typically thought of as sport sparring. This type of sparring does not use the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread. For a sport related art, where the goal of the training is competition, those additional factors are NOT needed or even desirable. For an art, that has self defense as a goal, those additional factors are applicable because they apply to real world confrontations/altercations.

From a self defense perspective...

Kata can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train kata but never go into a hands on scenario that mimics (as closely as is safely possible) real world conditions.

Bunkai can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you train only 'by rote' without mimicking real world conditions. Two people doing bunkai on each other trains a specific movement or application, it does not train you for the totality of a real world altercation.

Sparring can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It takes 'by rote' to the next level by allowing it to free flow during movement. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train 'sport style sparring' without mimicking real world conditions.

Each can be a valuable 'part' of the equation, but by themselves do NOT prepare a student for the realities of an altercation/confrontation. Each has it's place in the curriculum but alone do not suffice for the totality of what can and does happen.

Kata, bunkai and sparring doesn't teach a student to de-escalate a situation before it begins. Neither do they teach escape or evasion or and of the other factors I've detailed multiple times. Therefore each can be a valuable training tool but are sub-optimal in-and-of-themselves. This is where scenario based training comes into play.

Thus if you train in kata (as described above using the 'deeper' applications) you are doing well in having this as a training method. It isn't the whole of self defense training. If you drill bunkai by rote you are doing well in having this as a training method. If you spar you are doing well by having this as a training method. But none are complete until you have a free flowing drill (scenario) that can/does have some/many/all of the factors that can/are present in real life. The scenario based training method puts it all together.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for the clarification, Kong!

I'll summarize your response in order to make sure I am understanding correctly:

Both sparring and kata are both valuable training methods for self-defense if they are used correctly for that purpose, but are suboptimal if not.

Neither training method covers all the elements necessary for self-defense. Scenario training is the place where you can take the lessons from sparring, kata, or both and apply them along with a host of other important considerations which are not addressed in either of the two.

Is that an accurate summation? If so, I think most of us would have no disagreement.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thanks for the clarification, Kong!

I'll summarize your response in order to make sure I am understanding correctly:

Both sparring and kata are both valuable training methods for self-defense if they are used correctly for that purpose, but are suboptimal if not.

Neither training method covers all the elements necessary for self-defense. Scenario training is the place where you can take the lessons from sparring, kata, or both and apply them along with a host of other important considerations which are not addressed in either of the two.

Is that an accurate summation? If so, I think most of us would have no disagreement.

I suppose that would sum it up nicely.

If you don't practice de-escalation skills you're not likely to be successful with them.

If you don't practice escape, evasion or use of weapons/improvised weapons you're not likely to be successful with them.

If the extent of training is inside of a school, using a specific rule set that can't be deviated from your less likely to be successful against someone that doesn't subscribe or adhere to your rule set.

All the 'little' details aren't really that little. They can make a huge difference in the outcome of a violent altercation. Thinking that you'll 'rise to the occasion' while under duress/stress and/or possibly injured isn't a very sound plan. That's why the saying has been around for decades, 'you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training'. And there's another apt saying, 'garbage in, garbage out'.

 

[drop bear]

There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.

I'm sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?

 

[drop bear]

I'm sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

Especially if the guy is prepping for a fight,hasn't eaten and is being unnecessarily beat up on. There have been some temper tantys thrown.

I will go into this a bit more. Deescalation was raised in another thread and this post (edited) summed it up pretty well.

Let me help you out here. All that stuff that you just wrote can be summed up in one sentence......"Don't be an idiot" You don't need color codes for threats. You don't need to study the rituals of violence. You don't need to pretend you're some expert in the realities of the street. Give us a gosh darn break, Marc Macyoung. You just need to not be an cheeky bugger and use some common sense.

 

[drop bear]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

Especially if the guy is prepping for a fight,hasn't eaten and is being unnecessarily beat up on. There have been some temper tantys thrown.

I will go into this a bit more. Deescalation was raised in another thread and this post (edited) summed it up pretty well.

Let me help you out here. All that stuff that you just wrote can be summed up in one sentence......"Don't be an idiot" You don't need color codes for threats. You don't need to study the rituals of violence. You don't need to pretend you're some expert in the realities of the street. Give us a gosh darn break, Marc Macyoung. You just need to not be an cheeky bugger and use some common sense.

Now because I can't change the font back.

I don't know about your gym but in ours the sort of guy who starts fights will get panel beaten until he is either fixed or leaves. It is the nature of the training.

Of course in mma it is very common to have exactly that sort of guy walk through the door.

We were thinking of that as our next promotional.

"Come do MMA we will make you slightly less of a duchebag."

 

[Tez3]

Now because I can't change the font back.

I don't know about your gym but in ours the sort of guy who starts fights will get panel beaten until he is either fixed or leaves. It is the nature of the training.

Of course in mma it is very common to have exactly that sort of guy walk through the door.

We were thinking of that as our next promotional.

"Come do MMA we will make you slightly less of a duchebag."

it might be the type you get but it happens rarely here, those who start fights on the whole tend not to want to actually fight MMA, of course they will tell you they could if they wanted to but the truth is those who fight MMA aren't the type of people who start fights outside. MMA fighters are those who want to compete, to challenge themselves and who are happy to have rules and a referee. They train, learn and train some more. The thug type doesn't come anywhere near an MMA gym. We've never had to 'beat' anyone up, we've never had people start fights either in the gym of at a fight night. Those who are liable to fight at a show are those who fancy themselves as hard and will kick off either in the crowd or the car park. It's never the fighters. Perpetuating this thug image of MMA people does us all a dis-service.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You made this statement.

There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.

You were asked to clarify. You posted this video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

I watched the video. I didn't see any de-escalation at all. Do you know what de-escalation means?

 

[MJS]

Tony and I have been talking via PM. I'm going to address his questions here in the thread since it is applicable.



Kata

Kata can be a valuable training tool in many martial arts. Or it can be a class filler and what many consider a colossal waste of time. Why the two extremes? In my opinion it is how kata is viewed. Kata can be viewed peripherally as a set of movement consisting of blocks, punches and kicks. For some martial artists, this is perhaps all they need. For example, if the martial artist is focused on sport competition then generally blocks, punches and kicks are all they need for those competitions (generally speaking for those martial arts that utilize kata and then compete using those skills). There is another view of kata as I described on page 9 of this thread. That view is that each movement sequence is in fact a principle that demonstrates something beyond the block, punch, kick mode of training. My purpose is not to debate between the two in this post, only that these views are two that exist. This second view is the one I espouse due to my training and research. As I detailed on page 9, the opening movement in Pinan Shodan can be viewed as a shoulder lock specifically and as a principle of locking. This lock can be applied, as per the kata, from standing either from a punch or grapple and also applied on the ground or position of disadvantage.

This is the function of the kata as a training tool. It effectively catalogs a series of movements, application of those movements and principles that those movements can further be expanded into. It is a training tool that can be passed on effectively from instructor to student. Kata does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring kata because they aren't a function of the kata.

I agree. I've seen some schools where it's both...a useful tool, and a filler. A filler, mainly because the inst. has no clue as to what the meaning of the kata is, so everyone is a robot, aimlessly going through the moves. That, IMO, is the most important thing about kata...understanding what you're doing. It really is amazing, what you can find, if you know what you're doing.

Bunkai

Kata can be broken down into bunkai. These can be drills using the specific movements demonstrated in the kata or they can be movements using the principle demonstrated in the kata. Again using the opening movement in Pinan Shodan, you can drill the lock from a punch defense, from a grapple as per the kata or ou can use in on the ground or a different angle using the locking principle demonstrated and then translated to other positions. This is the function of bunkai as a training tool.

How the bunkai drill is developed depends upon the goal of that training day as well as the experience of the student training the bunkai. It could be an individual drill using by rote to stress the movement/principle to someone just learning. This type of drill does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread because they aren't a function of this type of drill. Or, a drill could be set up using a series of bunkai as I described in the sparring thread i.e. scenario based training. This would utilize the additional factors I've detailed in the sparring thread because it is a function of the training.

Yes, I've done this in class before. I've taken a portion of a kata, had the class pair up, and explore it on their own for a while, before coming back as a group, and sharing what they found. I did that, because I wanted them to think on their own. Spoon feeding them all the time, isn't helping them learn. IMO, there comes a time, when you, as a teacher, need to start prepping them to get kicked out of the nest, so to speak, and make them start finding things and figuring things out on their own.

Sparring

Sparring can have many definitions. I was careful to detail my definition in the sparring thread. It consists of two people, and only two people abiding by a specific rule set until a specific goal has been reached i.e. a point has been scored or a submission applied or some such other goal. What is typically thought of as sport sparring. This type of sparring does not use the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread. For a sport related art, where the goal of the training is competition, those additional factors are NOT needed or even desirable. For an art, that has self defense as a goal, those additional factors are applicable because they apply to real world confrontations/altercations.

From a self defense perspective...

Kata can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train kata but never go into a hands on scenario that mimics (as closely as is safely possible) real world conditions.

Bunkai can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you train only 'by rote' without mimicking real world conditions. Two people doing bunkai on each other trains a specific movement or application, it does not train you for the totality of a real world altercation.

Sparring can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind. It takes 'by rote' to the next level by allowing it to free flow during movement. It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train 'sport style sparring' without mimicking real world conditions.

Each can be a valuable 'part' of the equation, but by themselves do NOT prepare a student for the realities of an altercation/confrontation. Each has it's place in the curriculum but alone do not suffice for the totality of what can and does happen.

Kata, bunkai and sparring doesn't teach a student to de-escalate a situation before it begins. Neither do they teach escape or evasion or and of the other factors I've detailed multiple times. Therefore each can be a valuable training tool but are sub-optimal in-and-of-themselves. This is where scenario based training comes into play.

Thus if you train in kata (as described above using the 'deeper' applications) you are doing well in having this as a training method. It isn't the whole of self defense training. If you drill bunkai by rote you are doing well in having this as a training method. If you spar you are doing well by having this as a training method. But none are complete until you have a free flowing drill (scenario) that can/does have some/many/all of the factors that can/are present in real life. The scenario based training method puts it all together.

IMO, sparring can be looked at in a number of ways. I'd say it all depends on how you train it.

But, all that aside, I do think this was a very good, well thought out post!

 

[drop bear]

it might be the type you get but it happens rarely here, those who start fights on the whole tend not to want to actually fight MMA, of course they will tell you they could if they wanted to but the truth is those who fight MMA aren't the type of people who start fights outside. MMA fighters are those who want to compete, to challenge themselves and who are happy to have rules and a referee. They train, learn and train some more. The thug type doesn't come anywhere near an MMA gym. We've never had to 'beat' anyone up, we've never had people start fights either in the gym of at a fight night. Those who are liable to fight at a show are those who fancy themselves as hard and will kick off either in the crowd or the car park. It's never the fighters. Perpetuating this thug image of MMA people does us all a dis-service.

Hardly consider it a thug image.

Fighters during a camp get thrashed. There are some really un fun bits. There is no getting around that.