Kata Versus Visualisation!

[Corporal Hicks]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Regards

 

[MJS]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

Yes, IMO, its very important to know what the moves are in the kata. Just going through the kata, without knowing what you're doing is not giving you a full understanding of the kata. Like a SD technique, the kata gives you a base to build off of. You may not execute that text book SD tech. and you may not be able to execute that exact move in the kata, but by having an understanding of what you're doing, it'll be much easier to get a natural reaction, rather than having to think, considering we can't predict what our attacker will do.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

Correct.

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Yes, starting off slow, getting an understanding of what you're doing, and then gradually picking up speed, and repeating this process many times will help committ it to muscle memory. The more you do something the more natural it'll become.

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Regards

This is very hard to explain over the internet but you might try taking the transitional movements in between the basic movements and explore them. There is meaning in them. Sometimes the steps in the kata are not just stances/steps, sometimes they are clues as to what your hands are doing or what you are about to do, sometimes they serve as a cover as well.

For example, a double block can be just that or it can be a defense against a 2 handed grab that leads into and arm bar.

 

[Sin]

When i learn a kata, the techniques being proformed, are the techniques I am learning, for sparring and for the street(if necessary) kata for me is somewhat like a sylibus(sp) for whats to come.

 

[bdparsons]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Regards

Visualization is an important tool whether it is applied to kata/hyung/forms/sets, self defense techniques, one/two/three steps, or individual basic moves. The trap that you don't want to fall into is to let visualization take the place of physical training. As opposed to thinking of kata as "restricting" think of it as just one of the tools in your toolbox. Visualization should not take the place of any part of your training, just used as a tool to augment everything else. Training is a package deal, don't shortchange yourself.

As far as "muscle memory" is concerned, let me post my feelings from another thread: The key is repeated proper executions in a non-stress evironment coupled with more repetitions in progressively more stressful environments.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[dsp921]

I don't think there is a "versus" here. When I do kata I always visualize the attack. I also go through the same kata repeatedly visualizing as many attack possibilities for the moves as possible. Two sequential upward blocks can block two sequential strikes, but if only one strike comes, the second block can become a forearm strike to the face, etc. The visualistion also helps me to move like I mean it. Otherwise, I'm just doing a little dance...

 

[Miles]

This is very hard to explain over the internet but you might try taking the transitional movements in between the basic movements and explore them. There is meaning in them. Sometimes the steps in the kata are not just stances/steps, sometimes they are clues as to what your hands are doing or what you are about to do, sometimes they serve as a cover as well.

For example, a double block can be just that or it can be a defense against a 2 handed grab that leads into and arm bar.

This is excellent advice! Your stances (and the movement to get into same) can be kicks/sweeps/throws/joint locks.

The example RR mentioned was specifically demonstrated at the Kukkiwon last Summer.

Miles

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think one of the big kata problems today is not understanding how to apply what it is you're learning. like robert said, look at the transitional moves. another thing i see people do is gluing their chambered hand to their side, just because its chambered, doesnt mean you cant use it, eg. youve finished making a right lunge punch, now you're going to turn 180 degrees into a gedan barai, the chambering hand could be used as a grab to assist in a throw or a grab to assist in a lock.
also use the same movement against as many attacks as you can and explore the applications off of one movement. eg pinan shodan- the series of shutos at the end of the kata have myriad applications, parries, strikes, arm checks, locks, leg checks, all from a simple shuto and movement into and out of a kokutsu dachi.

 

[RRouuselot]

………1) another thing i see people do is gluing their chambered hand to their side, just because its chambered, doesnt mean you cant use it, eg. youve finished making a right lunge punch, now you're going to turn 180 degrees into a gedan barai, the chambering hand could be used as a grab to assist in a throw or a grab to assist in a lock.

2) also use the same movement against as many attacks as you can and explore the applications off of one movement.

3) eg pinan shodan- the series of shutos at the end of the kata have myriad applications, parries, strikes, arm checks, locks, leg checks, all from a simple shuto and movement into and out of a kokutsu dachi.

1)The chambered fist to the side ALWAYS means something…..otherwise why do it. This is what most people don’t think about when looking at kata. All movements represent something, and not always what they seem to. You have to think where it ties into the kata. Does the move tie into the movement in the kata or the transitions from one move to another.

2)So true! You are obviously looking at the BIG picture! ( I tried to give you some + rep for that but couldn't since I gave you some + rep for something else before)Just because a teacher said this is a defense against xxxx doesn’t mean you can’t apply it elsewhere…..martial arts were not formed from cookie-cutters so their offense and defense can be used for various situations.

3)Or to trap hands………and go into joint locks……just a thought….

 

[BlackCatBonz]

robert if i could ever afford a ticket to japan, im coming to your dojo!

 

[RRouuselot]

robert if i could ever afford a ticket to japan, im coming to your dojo!

Your welcome to come by anytime. :cheers:

 

[Tony]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Regards

Hi Corporal HIcks

I try to visualise imaginary opponents with some of the moves from my kung fu forms. Have you seen this month's copy of Combat magazine? There is a great article on the subject, very informative!

 

[Tremble]

Kata can be a bit like poetry.


You can read the same poem over and over, but sometimes you find something new, and it may not be what the author had in mind. That's the beauty of Poetry, and of Kata.

Visualisation is merely a facet of Kata.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hi,
I know the problems that people have with kata and their importance in MA training. However we know that kata also teach the student how to pratice and perform the basic moves of an art.

When praticising after katas have been learnt would it be the next stage to take what you have learnt and use visualisation instead. This way surely you would not have the 'restrictions' of kata. I dont mean to offend with this but surely you could pratice being attacked by so many different moves and combinations. If you could program these using visualisation then surely you would be much better off in sparring or even if your visualising a self defence situation.

Actually, NO!

After learning the kata/form you now need to break each and every technique down and work on applications. It's ok to use "visualisation" if that helps to learn a kata/form, but don't try and use it thinking it's going to help you in sparring because it won't! What will happen then is instead of moving naturally, you'll be looking for certain attacks to certain areas to use attack A against or Attack B against, thus the only thing you're doing is slowing down your reaction time and spending too much time thinking.

I know some pratices teach that you should be completely free in a fight but surely visualising the attacks coming at you and you using your subsequent blocks and counters would enhance not hinder your fighting skill?

This is where many ppl screw themselves.

You don't need to think about trying to defend attacks with this or that block or counter. Doing so only hinders you in moving freely and natural, because you're spending too much time looking for certain attacks. In spending that time looking for their attacks you're only fighting a defensive fight while limiting your counter chances. Plus you're now fighting their fight and not your own.

If you were to do so, would it be more effective to muscle memory if you pratice either a kata or visualisation slowly?

Regards

What would be more effective for any memory.... muscle or mind is the old saying Practice! Practice! Practice! makes perfect.

jeff