Non-Compete Agreement Required for BB Testing?

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Has anyone seen non-compete agreements required before testing for a BB?

I am curious because 20 years ago, my 1st dan instructor mentioned that he had to sign an agreement when he tested for 1st dan that he would not open a school in the same area as his master (defined as about 100 km radius). He was only 1st dan, but quite athletic and good at sparring, and had the skill level to run his own school.

This all came out when my instructor stated in passing that he'd like to open a school but he was moving to a different part of the province. He stated that if he were to stay in his current town, he could only open a BRANCH school of his master due to the non-compete. And he didn't want to open a school in the new town about 150 km away (sufficiently far away), because his master had a "non-compete" with another master to basically divide the region between the 2 of them. My instructor didn't want to go against his Master and open a school in "the other Master's territory.

Has anyone else seen non-competes for 1st or 2nd or 3rd (etc) dan testing? Is it something you would think to ask before signing up with a club if you were moving and already were a lower BB?

 

[arnisador]

No, not with that exact timing, but noncompete clauses in general are not uncommon. There was a recent thread on that here.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Has anyone seen non-compete agreements required before testing for a BB?

I am curious because 20 years ago, my 1st dan instructor mentioned that he had to sign an agreement when he tested for 1st dan that he would not open a school in the same area as his master (defined as about 100 km radius). He was only 1st dan, but quite athletic and good at sparring, and had the skill level to run his own school.

This all came out when my instructor stated in passing that he'd like to open a school but he was moving to a different part of the province. He stated that if he were to stay in his current town, he could only open a BRANCH school of his master due to the non-compete. And he didn't want to open a school in the new town about 150 km away (sufficiently far away), because his master had a "non-compete" with another master to basically divide the region between the 2 of them. My instructor didn't want to go against his Master and open a school in "the other Master's territory.

Has anyone else seen non-competes for 1st or 2nd or 3rd (etc) dan testing? Is it something you would think to ask before signing up with a club if you were moving and already were a lower BB?

Back in the early 90's there was an instructor in my area who had the non compete contract. Including when he sold you a franchise, which has distances defined. That being said, I did not hear about this for very long. So I am not sure if he added a non disclosure agreement or just dropped.

 

[sopraisso]

I think that commercial competition between master and student is something that should be settled in fairer and more honest terms. To put it in an agreement is absurd as it puts the commercial interest of the master as a criterion for rewarding the dan grade, and no choice is left for the student. By the way, I've seen many students who are better instructors than their masters so they would deserve more students.

I've been recently awarded black belt in KKW taekwondo and in the ceremony of receiving the belt my instructor gave me a paper with a never seen before oath that I had to read and sign in public, and it contained many absurd commitments (like always having to agree with the instructor and always accept and support the decisions of the taekwondo orgs) that I had no option but to accept in front of everyone else (the paper hadn't even been shown to me previously, and I received no copy of it, either). Obviously I'm not willingly to remain with this instructor for very longer (only until I receive my KKW certificate). I think that having to read and sign that paper was a severe case of moral coercion, and the same applies to any kind of agreement for a dan grading I can currently think of.

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[Gwai Lo Dan]

Given that you only surmised of the contract after you paid your fees, at the last moment in front of everyone else, you were asked to sign under duress IMO. I would guess that the would be readily tossed out in a court.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Non-compete contracts are, as I understand it, pretty much unenforceable in the US. (I Am Not A Lawyer, Your Mileage May Vary, Not Valid With Any Other Offer, See Other Side For Details...)

I've always thought they were sort of stupid, especially in the MA world. My Master and KJN encourage people to open schools. Anywhere.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In the US Non Compete contarcts are enforcebal if they meet certain requirements which vary by state. Among the most common is "Reasoneableness" as to Time and distance restrictions which vary by geography and industry. A basic requirement for any contract to be enfore\ceable is "Consideration" Each party must give the other party something of value. This must be something of value for that transaction. So, if you had a seperae transaction like satisfying all testing and training reuirements to pass a BB test, there would be no consideration for a surprise seperate non compete agt.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I am curious because 20 years ago, my 1st dan instructor mentioned that he had to sign an agreement when he tested for 1st dan that he would not open a school in the same area as his master (defined as about 100 km radius).

Sounds like a school that has little confidence in the quality of what they teach and the loyalty of their black belts

He was only 1st dan, but quite athletic and good at sparring, and had the skill level to run his own school

There is more to running a school than a high skill level but it's a start.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

By the way, I've seen many students who are better instructors than their masters so they would deserve more students.

I am always reminded of the words of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming in a very excellent article in the JAMA. Basically he stated that the highest compliment a student can give to his/her instructor is to exceed there skill and experience.

I've been recently awarded black belt in KKW taekwondo and in the ceremony of receiving the belt my instructor gave me a paper with a never seen before oath that I had to read and sign in public, and it contained many absurd commitments (like always having to agree with the instructor and always accept and support the decisions of the taekwondo orgs) that I had no option but to accept in front of everyone else (the paper hadn't even been shown to me previously, and I received no copy of it, either).

In regards to the underlined portion of your statement, what is really says is that the instructor believes themselves to be beyond learning by trying to enforce agreement from students. A good instructor can always learn from a student. And if they don't learn from students over the course of their relationship, at least something...well imnsho they aren't very good instructors. Same goes for any organization that happens to be run by...people. Some organizations seem to feel that you should blindly accept their every decree. And unfortunately some do.

Obviously I'm not willingly to remain with this instructor for very longer (only until I receive my KKW certificate).

Don't blame you.

 

[Koshiki]

My school system has a similar agreement, along the lines of, "promise not to demonstrate, teach or use the techniques and methods with out express permission." Or something like that. It's on the liability release waiver thingy everyone signs to be able to train. That said, the Shihan encourages everyone to go out and practice with other styles/schools, and has been pestering me to open my own school, branch or otherwise, in my new area. It's a small school, everyone's really close, more of a family/friends thing really, and the intent of the waiver is basically a way to say, should some new student test their punches out on someone at their highschool, "hey, they promised not to use this stuff, we told them not to!" rather than to stifle Black Belts heading out on their own.

Obviously, I don't know if that's what most schools are going for or not, but that is a different side of the coin to look at.

 

[Archtkd]

I've been recently awarded black belt in KKW taekwondo and in the ceremony of receiving the belt my instructor gave me a paper with a never seen before oath that I had to read and sign in public, and it contained many absurd commitments (like always having to agree with the instructor and always accept and support the decisions of the taekwondo orgs) that I had no option but to accept in front of everyone else (the paper hadn't even been shown to me previously, and I received no copy of it, either). Obviously I'm not willingly to remain with this instructor for very longer (only until I receive my KKW certificate). I think that having to read and sign that paper was a severe case of moral coercion, and the same applies to any kind of agreement for a dan grading I can currently think of.

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Run from that teacher as fast as you can and complain about that matter directly to the head of your region/continent at Kukkiwon's international desk. The Kukkiwon takes complaints relating to dan certification fairly seriously. Send the Kukkiwon the copy of stuff you are being forced to sign. You can also contact Ga-Young Amanda Jung at the Kukkiwon's Internation desk. Her e-mail is [email protected].

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

My school system has a similar agreement, along the lines of, "promise not to demonstrate, teach or use the techniques and methods with out express permission." Or something like that. It's on the liability release waiver thingy everyone signs to be able to train.

I've seen that as well, but I looked at it as more of a liability issue for the school than a non-compete, since it would no longer apply if the contract was over (time has run out).

 

[sopraisso]

Run from that teacher as fast as you can and complain about that matter directly to the head of your region/continent at Kukkiwon's international desk. The Kukkiwon takes complaints relating to dan certification fairly seriously. Send the Kukkiwon the copy of stuff you are being forced to sign. You can also contact Ga-Young Amanda Jung at the Kukkiwon's Internation desk. Her e-mail is [email protected].

This is a very interesting information and honestely I hadn't thought about it previously.
I cannot deny that I wouldn't like to do something that could harm my instructor, but that oath thing was really horrible. It would be hard to prove what was written in the paper, though, because no copy was given to me after that (I didn't enjoy that either, actually... I was promising something I didn't think about previously and wouldn't be able to think about properly later, but had to make the promise in front of a lot of people). Maybe I will be able to see it all happen again the next time someone in the school receives a black belt (probably in the next 6 months), so I can make something of it.
Thank you for the information and I'm going to think about that.

 

[WaterGal]

I've been recently awarded black belt in KKW taekwondo and in the ceremony of receiving the belt my instructor gave me a paper with a never seen before oath that I had to read and sign in public, and it contained many absurd commitments (like always having to agree with the instructor and always accept and support the decisions of the taekwondo orgs) that I had no option but to accept in front of everyone else (the paper hadn't even been shown to me previously, and I received no copy of it, either). Obviously I'm not willingly to remain with this instructor for very longer (only until I receive my KKW certificate). I think that having to read and sign that paper was a severe case of moral coercion, and the same applies to any kind of agreement for a dan grading I can currently think of.

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While I don't have a problem with a non-compete clause per se, having it sprung on you during your test in front of everyone as a condition of getting your belt sounds really shady and underhanded. I totally agree that you shouldn't stick with that guy.

Also "always having to agree with the instructor" sounds cultish. I know a bunch of people who used to go to a school where the owner thought he was some kind of guru and would try to interfere in his dan-level students' personal lives, using that kind of justification.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In my limited study of TKD, this was huge to the teacher and he spoke of how terrible it was than Americans were turning around and opening their own schools. I commented, "Welcome to America". He wasn't amused.
Sean

 

[andyjeffries]

The Kukkiwon takes complaints relating to dan certification fairly seriously. Send the Kukkiwon the copy of stuff you are being forced to sign. You can also contact Ga-Young Amanda Jung at the Kukkiwon's Internation desk. Her e-mail is [email protected].

Actually, I would say the Kukkiwon doesn't take these complaints very seriously, sorry to put a dampener on the advice.

Our national association issues Dan Certificates in their own name and these are given to passing testers on the day of the test (contrary to Kukkiwon promotion rules), although they do also apply for Kukkiwon certificates. They also take 6-12 months to get Kukkiwon certificates back to people, oftentimes blaming the Kukkiwon for the delay. The Kukkiwon is aware of both issues, but has taken no steps/action...

 

[Archtkd]

Actually, I would say the Kukkiwon doesn't take these complaints very seriously, sorry to put a dampener on the advice.

Our national association issues Dan Certificates in their own name and these are given to passing testers on the day of the test (contrary to Kukkiwon promotion rules), although they do also apply for Kukkiwon certificates. They also take 6-12 months to get Kukkiwon certificates back to people, oftentimes blaming the Kukkiwon for the delay. The Kukkiwon is aware of both issues, but has taken no steps/action...

I've seen the Kukkiwon reprimand individual masters, but it's a different story with WTF MNAs (Member National Associations). The Kukkiwon will never get involved in WTF MNA politics. I'm not sure whether Sopraiso is dealing with an individual master or an MNA.

 

[sopraisso]

I believe it's an individual master issue, although the politics with the MNA in Brazil doesn't work with best transparency, either. :-/

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[msmitht]

Rotflol. Move out to California. Civil code 16000 states that non compete agreements can not be enforced. As to the instructor that tries to force a speech/signing of forms on test/cert day-run away! I would have walked out and never returned, except maybe to demand a refund. Some instructors get caught up in their own little worlds and think that they can do whatever they want. If it was in writing beforehand or on the wall then that is on the student for not paying attention/ blind devotion. Otherwise I would get a lawyer an demand full refund of all tuition/fees paid.

 

[sopraisso]

Rotflol. Move out to California. Civil code 16000 states that non compete agreements can not be enforced. As to the instructor that tries to force a speech/signing of forms on test/cert day-run away! I would have walked out and never returned, except maybe to demand a refund. Some instructors get caught up in their own little worlds and think that they can do whatever they want. If it was in writing beforehand or on the wall then that is on the student for not paying attention/ blind devotion. Otherwise I would get a lawyer an demand full refund of all tuition/fees paid.

I really didn't plan to remain with him for very longer (and there were other reasons for such a decision), but once I'm depending on him to have my Kukkiwon certificate issued, I'm just going to wait until I have the certificate (quite a few months probably). After that, I'm going to be free!

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