Ninja!

[heretic888]

I only found Toshitora's website information earlier today and posted it for Tshadowchaser and yourself. As I mentioned in the first sentence: you would say that those guys don't count and this is exactly your defense.

*laughs* The reason those guys "don't count" is because, like Dux, Hunter, Lung, Duncan, et al, they don't have any evidence or proof to back up their claims.

Don is right, y'know. Its really stupid and ridiculous when guys who write books, have movies made about them, have mini-mall dojos, and scores of websites --- all of a sudden claim a need for "secrecy" or "hidden identities" of so-and-so Sensei when they are asked for proof and evidence of their training. Especially when there's so much counterevidence for their claims to be had (like the use of "dim mak" in a Japanese art, or Dux's stealing of the title of "shidoshi" from the Bujinkan).

Laterz.

 

[Enson]

I have read everyones response carefully. mostly everyone here knows or pretends to know more than the other. it sounds like some have deep issues they need to work out, but thats neither here nor there.
let me just submit something. i don't plan on arguing just want to ask a question.
question: it is supposed that dr. hatsumi is the last surviving real ninja. now some have said that there are ancient scrolls and stuff that relate that. that i wouldn't know because i have never seen ancient scrolls. (sounds like a rit on beverly hills ninja) that was a joke. i hope everyone can still take jokes. it is also supposed that dr. hatsumi learned from takamatsu. (i hope i got that right). how do we know takamatsu wasn't doing his own thing? even if he was ninja... how do we know he as the best of the best? (excuse the cliche) what if he was kicked out because he sucked? what if the whole bujinkan thing is one big farse? i mean mostly everyone here is ready to bash all koga but what if the togakure is fake? the biggest scam in history? don't get me wrong! i'm not saying it is, but what if takamatsu did his own thing like bruce lee? no one can say bruce lee wasn't good, but i read from james demile that he only trained in wing chun for a year. then he goes and creates a whole style based on it. now what about those who teach jkd? are they all fakes besides dan insanto and his original students? from what i understood sk hayes is the only one that got the right to bring and teach buginkan anyway.(i could be wrong on that) i mean someone actually said that 9/10ths of japanese history is fake. if thats the case all bujinkan, genbukan, klingan could be fake. (another joke) what i'm trying to say is does it really matter? does it make you a better warrior? judge a man for what he can do not for what his name is. sounds like racism to me. if i claim to be a ninja... let my works show me to be true not my title.
just some food for thought

 

[MisterMike]

*laughs* The reason those guys "don't count" is because, like Dux, Hunter, Lung, Duncan, et al, they don't have any evidence or proof to back up their claims.

Just curious, have you talked to O'sensei Duncan about his lineage or know anyone who has?

 

[Cryozombie]

question: it is supposed that dr. hatsumi is the last surviving real ninja. now some have said that there are ancient scrolls and stuff that relate that. that i wouldn't know because i have never seen ancient scrolls. (sounds like a rit on beverly hills ninja) that was a joke. i hope everyone can still take jokes. it is also supposed that dr. hatsumi learned from takamatsu. (i hope i got that right). how do we know takamatsu wasn't doing his own thing? even if he was ninja... how do we know he as the best of the best? (excuse the cliche) what if he was kicked out because he sucked? what if the whole bujinkan thing is one big farse? i mean mostly everyone here is ready to bash all koga but what if the togakure is fake? the biggest scam in history? don't get me wrong! i'm not saying it is, but what if takamatsu did his own thing like bruce lee? no one can say bruce lee wasn't good, but i read from james demile that he only trained in wing chun for a year. then he goes and creates a whole style based on it. now what about those who teach jkd? are they all fakes besides dan insanto and his original students? from what i understood sk hayes is the only one that got the right to bring and teach buginkan anyway.(i could be wrong on that) i mean someone actually said that 9/10ths of japanese history is fake. if thats the case all bujinkan, genbukan, klingan could be fake. (another joke) what i'm trying to say is does it really matter? does it make you a better warrior? judge a man for what he can do not for what his name is. sounds like racism to me. if i claim to be a ninja... let my works show me to be true not my title.
just some food for thought

The difference, as I percieve it anyhow... is this:

Hatsumi HAS those scrolls. he doesn't CLAIM to have them... he has them... they have been shown... They are verifiable evidence. Someone says "Prove You are the Grandmaster" and he can, at the very very least say, "Well heres the scrolls." There is much more to it than that, but I am oversimplifying it.

Dux says "Im a ninja!" No proof, other than his word, cant wont and probably never will show any verifiable evidence of it.

So... whereas an independant person, like say... ANDREW ADAMS who wrote an early book about the ninja, Spoke with Takamatsu and had seen the scrolls, can verify that there is at least some substance to Hatsumi's claims...

If another author goes to Dux to do a history of the "Dux-ryu" will he show them his teachers teachings? Provide evidence of his training? Etc? So far, the answer seems to be no...

IMO that is the difference and it is a big difference.

 

[Dale Seago]

The difference, as I percieve it anyhow... is this:

Hatsumi HAS those scrolls. he doesn't CLAIM to have them... he has them... they have been shown... They are verifiable evidence. Someone says "Prove You are the Grandmaster" and he can, at the very very least say, "Well heres the scrolls." There is much more to it than that, but I am oversimplifying it.

Dux says "Im a ninja!" No proof, other than his word, cant wont and probably never will show any verifiable evidence of it.

So... whereas an independant person, like say... ANDREW ADAMS who wrote an early book about the ninja, Spoke with Takamatsu and had seen the scrolls, can verify that there is at least some substance to Hatsumi's claims...

If another author goes to Dux to do a history of the "Dux-ryu" will he show them his teachers teachings? Provide evidence of his training? Etc? So far, the answer seems to be no...

IMO that is the difference and it is a big difference.

Additionally, though some of the purely "ninja" stuff may be difficult to pin down, Takamatsu's own training and certification in several known arts is unquestionably verified: He rewrote some of the Kuki family's martial scrolls for them from memory after they were destroyed by a fire during WWII, and they acknowledge this themselves, for example.

There's no reason to assume he made things up.

 

[Elizium]

Personally I think that the Koga Ryu people can not prove a true line of teaching. There is a break within the history and it is very recent. They may have claims, but are finding it hard to place the teachings without faltering on their own selves as to lose students if proved fraudulent.

 

[sojobow]

Of course, you have no proof to back up what you say about the differences. But I can point to the fact that the Iga and Koga were frequently on the same side, Iga and Koga were just next to each other, the Iga documents talked about their ties to the Koga in the north, they both used the Bansenshukai, etc. So much for your proof that there were differences.

I do believe that I have said, within this forum and said more than once, that Koga allied with Iga a few times. We agree with one another. Stories of Oda Nobunaga's attack on Iga speak of the great Koga Ninja killing many of Nobunaga's Samurai in his aid of Iga. Bansenshukai (which I appreciate you finally mentioning something of importance to the thread on Ninja) speaks to the similarities of Koga and Iga war arts etc. However, because one may have similarities does not eliminate that differences also may be evident. There were differences between Families of Koga. Koga religions were Shinto and Zen Buddhism, while Iga religions were Mik. Buddhism and Shinto. Both were similar in Shinto but had differences in Buddhism even though both were off-shoots of Buddhism. Being "Next to each other" is something explained by the next door neighbor being 50 miles away.

Logic: Oda Nobunaga attacked Iga and not Koga. Must have been some type of difference between the two in Nobunaga's eyes as his Samurai had to pass by Koga to get to Iga's region if from edo/tokyo region.

You slander people I respect like Dale Seago and support a guy like Frank Dux who sullied the uniform of the United States with his false claims and attacks on the institutions that dared say that he was lying about his relationship with them.

And where did I slander your fellow Bujinkan? I have much respect for Mr. Seago (and his beautiful wife) and understand him in a professional manner as I too practice parts of his personal profession. As far as martial arts are concerned, he outranks me thus, I am unable to state any opinion (which would be a useless opinion anyway). And why do you constantly mention the same people's names in your hatred. Has not the Bujinkan taught you that hating is a useless, meaningless emotion that has no place in Budo. (I like using your Japanese terms like "Budo" even though English translations is a lot clearer in English-speaking nations.)

Just recently, you tried to portray the ninjas as operating outside of Japan.

You mention, quite frequently, that no proof exist IN JAPAN on certain items in discussion. Lets try this short discussion directly from Japan:


Short story with lots of detail you are able to fill in:

A Samurai of the Toyotomi clan named Ieyasu Tokugawa, during the period of the 16th Century known as the "Golden Age of Ninjitsu," set out to make himself emperor even though the true ruler (per lineage) was the young Lord Hideyori. We may find other info on Ieyasu by looking into the Battle of Seikigahara. No arguement here regarding dates of "the Golden Age of Ninjitsu." 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th Century? - you pick one, I wouldn't argue it with you as I kind of lean towards the 14th-15th Centuries.

Anyway, a few years later, the assassination of Ieyasu Tokugawa was planned for the purpose of installing the rightfull Lord Hideyori to the throne.

Some central figures of interesdt during this time:

Lady Yoda - Caretaker of the kid, Lord Hideyori, and held hostage at Edo;
Princess Ota - Korean - also a Korean Kunoichi providing intelligence for the overthrow of Takugawa - she had previously be captured by the Japanese during a Korean invasion earlier;
Korean Ninja Isa Miyoshi-stole-in to rescue the princess Ota, provided intelligence from Lady Yoda;
Saratobi Saskei - a ninja master of the power of Kuji Kiri and one of the failed assassins (the other 8 died because of an anti-ninja ninja);
Master Hakune Saitozawa - trainer of Saratobi. Hakune Saitozawa was, himself, born and trained in China and whose philosophies formed the foundation of many new Ninja Clans in Japan. (E.G., from China to Japan and not the other way around)

We could also infer, as I have done, that ninjitsu must not have existed only in Japan prior to this Golden Age of Ninjitsu.

Except, the Mongols never conquered Japan. They never even got far off the beaches before they were beaten back in two invasion attempts and a devine wind destroyed their fleets. (Oh yes, that is why the Japanese came up with the term "kamikaze/ devine wind" for their last desperate attempt to stop the allied invasion.)

Well, you're close here. Mongols (Khan's) first invasion resulted in Shogun's army running away as the army, on horseback, had never seen or heard canon weapons. They kept falling off their scared horses (Samurai did ride horses usually in combat). Confused, the Shogun's army retreated. Khan's army became suspicious as to why the Japanese army gave up so easy. Khan's army then went back to their ships thinking that it must be a trap if they follow the running Samurai. Note here, that Khan had sent messengers to Japan demanding his tribute. These messengers must have been able to draw Japanese kanji and speak the language. Khan returned with "1,000 Ships" after again demanding his tribute, then comes your Kamikaze events as the Japanese had built brick/rock walls at all west-facing ports. Want proof? ask any American War College. (aside: who were Khan's messengers? don't answer, just food for thought)

MisterMike, does this answer your question about why people are antagonistic towards those claiming to be Koga? If you want an honest, documented account of the Koga ryu go to www.Jigokudojo.com and look for an article by me in the article section.

Yooo Mikey: When you check out Mr. Roley's "History of Koga," remember that he said "an honest, documented account." Note how he himself says that he left off certain information in order to try and trap Kogas. Would this behavior, in a 'historical' document be considered "honest?" Also, seems we take liberties with what we consider as a "documented account." I must have missed his "credits." Actually, its not about Iga and Koga, its about Koga and sojobow hating.

Shamefull. No teaching of Ninjutsu at the University of Tokyo.

 

[sojobow]

Personally I think that the Koga Ryu people can not prove a true line of teaching. There is a break within the history and it is very recent. They may have claims, but are finding it hard to place the teachings without faltering on their own selves as to lose students if proved fraudulent.

Take this from someone who practices a martial art style/system that "includes" Koga Yamabushi. We don't care about the "Japanese connection." What goes on in the Ryu, stays within the Ryu.

Knowledge is "earned" in our Ryu.

 

[Don Roley]

However, because one may have similarities does not eliminate that differences also may be evident. There were differences between Families of Koga. Koga religions were Shinto and Zen Buddhism, while Iga religions were Mik. Buddhism and Shinto.

Sources and cites. You throw these little things out and then refuse to back them up with anything anyone else can go and check up. If you are being truthfull about not slandering Dale Seago, Frank Dux actually having a video of his kumite, etc, then show us how trustworthy you are by showing proof of this statement you threw out.

If you can not, I think most people will understand when I say that you can not be trusted and are actively involved in trying to decieve others.

A Samurai of the Toyotomi clan named Ieyasu Tokugawa, during the period of the 16th Century known as the "Golden Age of Ninjitsu," set out to make himself emperor even though the true ruler (per lineage) was the young Lord Hideyori.

This is an example of how ignorant you are. I am not being cruel, I am just being honest. Run this by any teacher of Japanese history and they will fall over themselves laughing. Ieyasu was never a Toyotomi clan member. Neither were, nor tried to be, the emperor.

These are things that are easily checked by an inquiry with a person who has SOME experience in Japanese history. It is also typical of the patently false information you spread on the internet to try to shore up your case that maybe what you say may be true.

I do not even have to deal with the rest of your misguided babblings. If anyone doubts that what I say is true, go to the local community college and ask the Japanese history proffesor if the quote by Sojobow is anything other than a silly joke. Then take my word that the rest of what he writes is of a similar tack.

Of course, after this, Sojobow is probably going to try his old tactic of whining, "I never tried to portray myself as an expert" (Bovine feces- read the post above) " I was just trying to deal with others in an honest exchange of ideas! Why are you all out to get me!"

 

[sojobow]

Sources and cites. You throw these little things out and then refuse to back them up with anything anyone else can go and check up. If you are being truthfull about not slandering Dale Seago, Frank Dux actually having a video of his kumite, etc, then show us how trustworthy you are by showing proof of this statement you threw out.

If Ieyasu Tokugawa was not a member of the Toyotomi Clan, tell us what Clan to which he belonged.

I named certain Korean and Chinese "Ninja." Ninja being the subject of this thread sir. If I'm wrong, tell us where.

Your constant crying doesn't help us learn anything about "Ninja."

Have you noticed that every post you make remotely connected to a discussion involving me, has a certain name within. You constantly, regardless of the subject, insert into your reply, the name next to "Dale Seago" above. You're gonna have to do better - mentally - if you want to pass the Sakki Test with the tester using a REAL SWORD and not a bamboo stick.

Help us out and post some facts regarding the Ninja and not about sojobow (and please learn to spell my name correctly - it ain't hard - no caps either).

In fact, don't even trouble yourself crying to everyone here. sojobow is outta here. I need to concentrate more on my Mushin exercises anyway. So, enjoy talking about Hanshi and me behind our backs. You other guys take care. Try to dump the hatred. I'll check in again when I see adults posting. See you around crybaby.

Best of Luck to you all,

sojobow

 

[Elizium]

Take this from someone who practices a martial art style/system that "includes" Koga Yamabushi. We don't care about the "Japanese connection." What goes on in the Ryu, stays within the Ryu.

Knowledge is "earned" in our Ryu.

So by saying you do not care about the Japanese connection, you are turning your backs on the history of the Koga and basically ripping off the name Koga for monetary means?

 

[Don Roley]

In fact, don't even trouble yourself crying to everyone here. sojobow is outta here. I need to concentrate more on my Mushin exercises anyway. So, enjoy talking about Hanshi and me behind our backs. You other guys take care. Try to dump the hatred. I'll check in again when I see adults posting. See you around crybaby.

Don't leave mad, just leave. Or start giving sources and stop lying.

And I really want people to check with local Japanese history teachers to see just how silly Sojobow's comment about Tokugawa Ieyasu belonging to the Toyotomi clan, etc, is.

 

[heretic888]

And I really want people to check with local Japanese history teachers to see just how silly Sojobow's comment about Tokugawa Ieyasu belonging to the Toyotomi clan, etc, is.

Gonna agree with Don here. I have would you call a "baby steps" understanding of Japanese history, and even I know sojobow is spewing horsecrap with his claims here.

Regarding sojobow's contention that there were Chinese and Korean "ninja", I would be interested in knowing what his definition of "ninja" is in the first place. Its apparently not the definition that most historians use.

Laterz.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If he ment that there where people of each race and nation that might have been involved with intellgence gathering and assassianation, political influenceing and starting disharmoney with the villages, he might be correct. But to say they where ninja's, a verry distint group of Japanese people, is perhaps way of base.

 

[heretic888]

Well.... the problem is that things like spying, scouting, sneak attacks, and "covert ops" in general have been used human beings for a very, very, very long time. By no means are they unique to any culture or any particular group of people.

This is why I think some people's treatment of historical "ninja" as anybody that used "covert" tactics in feudal Japan is way too broad.

Bah, doesn't matter anyway. Sojobow's not here anymore.

All's well that ends well. I guess.

 

[Elizium]

Bah, doesn't matter anyway. Sojobow's not here anymore.

All's well that ends well. I guess.

He is here but not posting. So be wary people.

 

[Henso]

http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com

gentlemen,

A very interesting discussion you're having, and one that has particular relevance to my Ninjutsu experience. Though I am currently a member of the Bujinkan, my first teacher was a fantasy Koga practitioner, who claimed lineal connection to Fujita Seiko. At the time, there was no information available on this mysterious man, which made it difficult to disprove the false claims. I therefore take a different approach to Mr. Roley, beleiving that the more information that is available the better.

I have done much of the same research as Mr. Roley,(Above referenced link) and I agree with all of his conclusions. There is no currently credible evidence of any Koga Ryuha existing today. Fujita was the last person accepted as being a Koga Ninja by the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, and nobody in Japan has ever come forward to dispute this statement. I would also direct you to an English translation of a Fujita related article, posted on my site.(Fujita Saiko:Stranger Than Truth) The article was published in Karate Bushido, a French publication, by Sylvain Guitard. It too, arrives at the same conclusion.

Lastly, I just received a copy of Fujita's obituary, which I am having translated. A cursory look at it reveals some interesting facts:

1. Contrary to popular belief, it names a succesor, Iwata Manzo, inheritor of Nanban Sato Ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, Shingetsu Ryu Shurikenjutsu and Dai En Ryu Jojutsu. I found confirmation of the Nanban Sato Ryu inheritance on pg662 of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.
2. Both the obituary and Bugei Ryuha Daijiten confirm that neither Iwata nor anyone else, inherited Fujita's Ninjutsu system. The latter is particularly clear on this matter.

I will be posting the obituary in the original Japanese and the English when it is complete. Please review and comment.

 

[Don Roley]

1. Contrary to popular belief, it names a succesor, Iwata Manzo, inheritor of Nanban Sato Ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, Shingetsu Ryu Shurikenjutsu and Dai En Ryu Jojutsu. I found confirmation of the Nanban Sato Ryu inheritance on pg662 of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.

This is common knowledge in Japan. You want the address of the Namban Setto ryu? I can give it to you. The key thing that some of us have said is that Fujita's ninjutsu traditon died with him. The fact that he was willing to name a succesor for one non- ninjutsu tradition but there is no mention in a Japanese source for his Koga ryu tradition is kind of damming to those who claim that Fujita passed on the tradition to their teacher but did not bother to tell anyone else.

Believe me, I have been looking for another source of ninjutsu in Japan. Fujita seems to be the best chance of a living tradition. But so far, EVERY source says that the ninjutsu art died with him.

 

[Henso]

I agree with you entirely. I mentioned the fact of his naming an inheritor, more to demonstrate that the idea that the reason why Fujita's Koga tradition didn't come down to us, is because his 3 most senior students died with him, simply doesn't hold water. All of the facts that Fujita had chosen not to pass the system on. (Assuming it is accepted that he was actaully a ninja)

This fact is attested to in Fujita's autobiography, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (pg 273), and in numerous interviews that Fujita gave before he died. His obituary which names his uchi deshi, only adds to this mountain of facts. Anybody claiming otherwise, cannot simply make vague and unsubstantiated claims to counter these facts, documentation is the only gauge of a serious arguement.