Banke Shinobinoden

Chris Parker

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Hi,

This, I believe, has been covered in detail before, might do to check previous threads for the info you're after. But, for what it's worth, this organisation often raises many red flags, as it claims to teach various ryuha that have been considered extinct and dead for a long time now, without giving any real evidence to back it up. The best they have presented (to my knowledge) is the "official" endorsement of the Iga-Ueno Museum, which is kinda like having a pirate lineage which is officially endorsed by the Disney Pirates of the Carribean ride...

The endorsement came about, by the way, because the head of the museum hired these guys to help design their "ninja demos", and needed/wanted to give them some credibility. Jinichi Kawakami (the head of the group) also claimed that the lineages headed by Hatsumi Soke and taught in the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan, and off-shoot organisations tracing back to Takamatsu Sensei are not real ninjutsu because it wasn't what he was teaching (he was the only holder of "real" ninjutsu, he claims). This goes against the findings of pretty well every historian and researcher worth their salt who has actually gone to Japan to find this art.

However, from memory Jinichi Kawakami was going to present a class/seminar in the US, can't remember when. Some members here said they were possibly going to attend, so maybe we'll get some first-hand information then. We can hope, I guess.
 

Bujingodai

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Some of my close associates are going. I can't make it anymore as it was rescheduled for a time in June when my employees are off on vacation.

I would have love to see what this guy is made of up front.
Nowadays I have a hard time believing anyone, legit or not.
 

Obi Wan Shinobi

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Yeah I just saw a little posting of that Koka Ryu seminar on the current issure of Black Belt Magazine. The article didn't elaborate on the training other than the seminar being Jinichi Kawakami's first visit to the U.S. and that he is a Koka/Iga Soke of Ninjutsu according to the Iga Ueno Museum.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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The problem with Jinichi is his claim.

His story is that as a boy he met an old man in a park who was teaching children how to fling coins with their fingers. The man, named Masado Ishida, was a medicine peddler, displaced by the war.

It is stories like this that makes it hard to swallow. Ban ke means Ban-attend Ke-family or household. Kinda of a weird last name. The Kanji for Oniwaban(ban) and Fujita Seiko Ban Kenpo appear to me to be different Kanji at least to me without my glasses lol.

An excellent work on Koga is Mr. Don Roley's writing on the subject:
http://www.oniko.de/download/sonstige/roley-history-of-koga-ryu.pdf

As Chris said just because a museum endorses it does not make it anymore legit after all good publicity equals more $$$.
 

Chris Parker

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I believe the name was taken from (Or originated from? Can I be that kind?) the Ban family as stated by George, as well as the title for the Bansenshukai, which is fairly freely referenced.

The full name Banke Shinobinoden should translate as "Ban Family Nin (Shinobi) Transmission/Tradition". Bansenshukai, by the way, translates as "Myriad Rivers Converge In The Sea", sometimes rendered as "10,000 Rivers Collect in the Sea". This could be the different kanji for "ban" that Jadecloud is noticing...
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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Chris the Kanji for Ban in Bansenshukai is different than the Ban in Ban ke.

Also the Ban in Ban ke is different than the Ban used in Oniwaban and the Ban used in Seiko's Kenpo. Thats alot of Ban.

I guess the term Ban ke is its code name or whatever and not a family name. It just sounds weird to be called the attending family as a family name. Sounds cool for a code name though.
 

ElfTengu

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There's a lot of talk and all sorts of infantile "I told you so" and "No you didn't" discussion going on on various forums but at the end of the day, even if the two gentlemen at the recent seminar were proven to be genuine, it only proves that they and their immediate students are genuine.

It does NOT vindicate anyone else who has been abusing the name Koga for years. And I'm sooooooo glad it actually turns out to be Koka or Kouka because it sounds so much less cool than Koga and will hopefully discourage further imposters.

But most hilarious of all is the fact that if all these spurned ninja wannabees go rushing to Kawakami for instruction, they will last 2 minutes if they didn't even have the discipline to keep going at X-kan taijutsu, which it would appear is much easier on its students than Koka Ryu would ever be. These two guys appear to have trained harder than any internet warrior would ever be prepared to do.
 

Bujingodai

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I've seen the clips, they didn't seem too impressive.
My friend attended, he said Kawakami was a very nice man. So take that for what it's worth
I was going to attend but when the dates changes it mired it for me.
I agree with the people rushing to things, though I heard there was only 30 there.
Most Koganuts don't strive for instruction they strive to justify themselves.
However having trained with quite a few of them, some of them take their training very seriously. Some are very embarrasing to be around.
And yes discipline of the Kan would be much lighter so if they couldn't handle it, good luck with a tougher school.
I left the Kan due to the lack of discipline personally.
 

elder999

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Interestingly, another website claims in an "e-mail" interview, that Meik Skoss was present at the seminar, and favorably impressed to the point of almost calling it "genuine."

It is more accurate to say that I think what Mssrs. Kamakami and Kiyomoto said made sense, given what I know of how many of the traditional Japanese arts -- by which I mean not just martial arts, but performing arts and crafts as well -- have developed and been transmitted to modern times. The words I used was, "it all parses," meaning that what he said is consistent with other things I have heard, read, and seen. What he said makes sense, as opposed, for
example, the stuff that Stephen Hayes, Hatsumi Masaaki and others of that ilk have written.

In conclusion, I think it's best to say that I believe Mssrs. Kawakami and Kiyomoto have a legitimate tradition. Whether or not it is being transmitted in the traditional manner at this time is not something I'm prepared to comment upon without observing the training and discussing it with them at length.


A lot of other interesting things in that interview, btw,,,,,
 
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Bruno@MT

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Interestingly, another website claims in an "e-mail" interview, that Meik Skoss was present at the seminar, and favorably impressed to the point of almost calling it "genuine."



A lot of other interesting things in that interview, btw,,,,,

Having had conversations with Meik Skoss, I have to admit that this carries weight with me. Granted, I am still a newbie (< 1 year) and may not know all the angles and agendas. From what I read on koryu.com, I had the impression that they really know their stuff.

EDIT: Here is the interview
http://kogaryuninjutsuint.blogspot.com/
 
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