Banke Shinobinoden

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, well, if Meik Skoss says it's genuine... that doesn't really mean anything to me!

Meik has constantly simply dismissed any claim by any of the X-Kans for a decade or two now, based in the main on the way the schools are taught. By combining the various lineages, rather than teaching them separately, this removes them from the "koryu" title (if you were learning Togakure Ryu in it's pure form then maybe, but not if it is all mixed up with Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu et al.), claiming that the BUjinkan methodologies (combined lineages) make it a modern method of transmission, therefore not koryu. However, he (and the other koryu guys) do freely admit that parts of the X-Kans are koryu systems: Kukishin Ryu, and Takagi Ryu in particular. And these are not questioned.

Then, reading through the interview, there are a lot of occasions where the interviewer is putting words in Meik's mouth, rather than him saying what they are claiming. His words simply said (to me) that he was impressed with Kawakami in that they seemed to know their history and presented without the "bombast or romantic mythologising" which he attributed to Hatsumi, Hayes etc.

He also said "It all parses", which could be a typo. If he really meant "parses", then he said "It all breaks into pieces", or it all fit together with his readings. If he meant "It all passes", then all that means is that it didn't leap out at him as being movie-jumping-up-backwards-into-trees kinda stuff. He then goes on to say that he was more convinced of the legitimacy based on the detail that Kawakami said it wasn't one of his precious koryu systems. However, if it is an unbroken lineage dating from pre-Meiji Restoration, then it is a Koryu system. Even if it is a broken lineage, it can still claim that title (there a quite a few koryu around now that have broken lineages, even to the point of having no head at the present moment). That just confuses me. It's legit because they don't claim it is?

The last point in this interview (and I feel there is a lot more said there that we aren't reading... maybe less flattering to the Koga group?) is that an instructor of Meik's who trains in Katori Shinto Ryu (which also claims some Ninjutsu in it's teachings, although from most reports that is mostly theoretical espionage, not technical knowledge) says that Meik's description is not dissimilar to what he has encountered. Not surprising, really. I'm sure that if he was to compare the espionage aspects of the X-Kan lineages (Kumogakure Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc) then there will be great similarities there as well. Just not on the technical side.

So while I do respect Meik quite a bit, I really do disagree with him when it comes to the Ninjutsu-related traditions, as that is not his area of expertise. So, no, he doesn't carry much weight here with me. I'm still waiting for some actual evidence of transmission (you know, scrolls or the like), otherwise I'm likely to not believe that a Koga lineage has survived unknown til now. But it'd be great if it has!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Hi Chris,

He also said "It all parses", which could be a typo. If he really meant "parses", then he said "It all breaks into pieces", or it all fit together with his readings.

Being a software developer, the 'parses' statement had a different meaning to me. if something parses, that means it is a consistent whole without missing pieces or anomalies. If we say something parses, then we mean that what we got is exactly how we would expect something to be if it is genuine.

For example, the you-know-who ninjutsu (or was that dragonball ninjitsu) guys... their system does not parse. The story is full of holes, there are omissions, there are things which should not be there, some of the story does not fit any historical context, etc...

I've had email conversations with Meik about this topic in the past , and his main objection to Xkan was how was taught / transmitted (in combination with the controversy about the scrolls) . And he does have a point, in that what is taught in Xkan in general is a modern system. But if someone at shihan level is taught e.g. kukishin according to the scrolls, and graded as such, I could call that koryu transmission. It does not matter much to me how any Xkan is acknowledged, and given that I am much less informed that you or Meik, any opinion I have is based on an incomplete picture.

Anyway, while I may not agree with all of his conclusions per se, he knows a lot about koryu systems and the history and context of traditional japanese arts. So if he says that it all parses, that, to me, is in indication that the system as an entity is probably legit, even though the curriculum may or may not be ninjutsu at all.

It would be great if Banke Shinibinoden is a surviving Koga style. I don't know if it is, and until the matter of the scrolls is sorted out, the point will remain inconclusive. But if someone like Meik says it may be legit, then I am willing to consider the notion that Banke is at least not a system cobbled together in the 80s, even though its status as 'real' ninjutsu still remains unclear.

The last point in this interview (and I feel there is a lot more said there that we aren't reading... maybe less flattering to the Koga group?) is that an instructor of Meik's who trains in Katori Shinto Ryu (which also claims some Ninjutsu in it's teachings, although from most reports that is mostly theoretical espionage, not technical knowledge) says that Meik's description is not dissimilar to what he has encountered. Not surprising, really. I'm sure that if he was to compare the espionage aspects of the X-Kan lineages (Kumogakure Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc) then there will be great similarities there as well. Just not on the technical side.

I have 1 japanese friend, whom I got to know in the context of Japanese blades and sharpening stones. From my dealings with him and through him, I have some appreciation (primitive though it may be) for the nuance of Japanese conversation. Given the short length of the interview, and the fact that it was translated to english, I am convinced that there is a lot missing.