Ninja!

[sojobow]

Sojobow,
Who the heck are you quoting because no one seems to have asked the question in this trhead that you answered. It just seems you through that out to make a point and make yourself look like you know something and are an expert in it.

I do believe that my post specifies to whom I was responding. But, as it seems you missed it, see tshadowchaser's 16th post which responded to a prior sojobow post. It may also be more appropriate if you would attemt to answer tshadowchaser's inquiry. It would be more helpful to him and others to answer their questions. We'd all love to review your thoughts on the subject of the inquiry. I know I would.

 

[Don Roley]

I do believe that my post specifies to whom I was responding. But, as it seems you missed it, see tshadowchaser's 16th post which responded to a prior sojobow post.

The quote section is empty, and the remainder of the post is about Hatsumi.

So tell me, where exactly does the question, "You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. Would someone enlighten me as to the difference?? " appear in this thread?

Oh yeah, and please give you sources for that explination about how things differed between Koga and Iga. You would not happen to be quoting from that noted incompetent fraud Frank Dux would you? I doubt anyone would trust him or a member of his orginization as a legitimate source about historical ninjutsu.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Don, I had asked the question. You should find it about 6 posts before your last one.
If you have a different explanation, I would love to here it.
I had asked why the Iga where called clans and the Koga families.
Now with out mentioning Dux, which seems to be your favorite target to bash, please give a answerer. As for dux I believe we left that part of the discussion long ago, with all agreeing he has made some verry large claims he can not back up.

 

[Don Roley]

I had asked why the Iga where called clans and the Koga families.

You might want to check on who was the one that said that the Koga used one term and the Iga another. I am having trouble recalling a Japanese source that makes that distinction. There is a lot of things like that spread on the internet by dubious folks such as Ashida Kim, Ron Collins, etc that is not backed up in any Japanese source.

 

[tshadowchaser]

So are you saying that there is or should not be any distinction of terms given to the various groups?
Another question is why have all of those groups that where classified as IGA now completely (or so it seems) nonexistent It seems that at least one or two should have survived in relatively the same manner as the Toga. If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?
I’m not trying to start anything with these question just trying to open intelligent discussion on the subject.

 

[Dale Seago]

If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?

Actually that seems to have been largely the case: Most ninja ryuha -- and a lot of samurai ryuha as well -- seem to have died out through sheer lack of perceived need and interest. A lot of other Japanese arts, some of more recent origin, appear to be seriously struggling to survive in the land of their birth simply because the younger generations can't be bothered with such things.

In the mid-'70s, Hatsumi sensei's school consisted of himself and a small handful of students. It's now grown worldwide, but even in Japan today there are vastly more foreigners training than Japanese.

 

[tshadowchaser]

That is indeed a sad note. One could only hope hat the youth of a country try to keep its past alive through the study of its arts, martial arts included.

 

[Don Roley]

Just to add on to what Dale said, here is somethign that will give you an idea of just how few arts survived past the time they were needed as battlefield arts.

I have sitting on my lap a book called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. It is a book where the author tried to list every art he could find in any historical reference. Now, the amount of Koryu (pre- modern era arts) still existing is not high, maybe about 2 or at most 300. Opening up a page at random I see on page 454 that 17 arts are listed. Take that as a standard and realize the last page of listings is 922.

Obviously, the old arts died off almost in as great a number as the dinosaurs. And out of all those schools, there was not even maybe 200 ninjutsu schools. And while the samurai still wore swords in the Edo period and thus the need for sword schools still existed, once the nation was unified under the Tokugawa, the need for battlefield spies just plummeted.

It is sad that so much died out. There seems to be about two generations between "grandma's old junk" a "valuable antique."

 

[sojobow]

So are you saying that there is or should not be any distinction of terms given to the various groups?
Another question is why have all of those groups that where classified as IGA now completely (or so it seems) nonexistent It seems that at least one or two should have survived in relatively the same manner as the Toga. If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?
I’m not trying to start anything with these question just trying to open intelligent discussion on the subject.

I, for one, appreciate your efforts in opening intelligent discussion. On your platform, I'd like to interject the following:

What Mr. Seago posted above is historically accepted in the general Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu community.

"Actually that seems to have been largely the case: Most ninja ryuha -- and a lot of samurai ryuha as well -- seem to have died out through sheer lack of perceived need and interest......"

Also, Mr. Roley's addition to Mr. Seago's post seems also acceptable, i.e.,:

"Just to add on to what Dale said, here is somethign that will give you an idea of just how few arts survived past the time they were needed as battlefield arts..

I have sitting on my lap a book called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. It is a book where the author tried to list every art he could find in any historical reference....."

If I might interject a detailed thought that may also assist in our understanding of the subject(s). Hopefully, you can follow my logic scenario:

Both Mr. Seago and Mr. Roley use the term "Ryuha." The term "Ryu," also called "nagare" in Japanese, comes from the Chinese kanji character pronounced something like "roo." Basically, it means "school." Japanese purist will also define "ryu" as a system of martial arts that can be traced all the back to its original founder (lineage). Thus, Joe Blow Ryu (JBR) is a school that can be traced all the way back to Joe Blow. It (JBR) is also taught and practiced in the same form today as Joe Blow did way back when.

Now, lets use Mr's. Seago and Roley's use of the term "Ryuha or Ryu-ha." A Ruyha is basically a school/system that is considered a variation of the ryu (a part of a part). Usually the off-spring of a student/disciple who has developed some type of variation that is usually different from the original ryu, but it still retains most of the basic characteristic. Note that the Ryu-ha, thus, will have a different lineage than the original JBR.

Note also that Mr. Roley mentions the 922 page Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. Note also that the title IS NOT "Bugei Ryu Daijiten." It is an excellent reference manual developed by the two authors and like any other reference manual, entries are constantly being updated in that some of the schools/ryu-ha named within may be withdrawn, deleted, added, modified etc.

If I (anyone - not referencing sojobow so relax) was taught Ninjitsu by an individual (father) and did not learn my Ninjitsu from a school enumerated in this book, I exist nontheless. I do not cease to exist because I never wished to start a school/Ryu or made sure that my name was listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.. I simple wished to pass my own system (Ryu and not Ryu-ha) to my direct family (sons/daughters) or someone else I thought worthy of receiving this knowledge as was the norm within the Koga community.

Forgive me for mentioning that the term "Ryu" in Japanese originated from the Chinese. It seems this relationship is not very popular to many. However, the Chinese connection, as well as my own school, exist nonetheless.

 

[Cruentus]

sojobow,

Your commentary is either just speculation, or an attempt to legitimize yourself without having to trace your lineage to Bujinkan, or through any other verifiable source.

If you claim "joe blow ryu" and say it is your family style, no one will argue legitimacy per say (but they may say your style sucks if they believe it does, or may argue if your claims about your style are outlandish). But, if you claim "Ninjitsu" as your style, then you had better have some evidence to back up the idea that your style traces back to Japanese Ninjitsu, otherwise your misleading.

Can a ninjitsu player tell me if I am out of line here?

:asian:

 

[Dale Seago]

You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yeah, you know, Tulisan, the way I look at it all...

If i studyed, I dunno... say, Greco-roman Wrestling,

and decided to call it "Horizontal TaeKwonDo"

It wouldnt really matter. But some sap looking to learn TaeKwonDo might be either disapointed, or look really really stupid when he entered a TaeKwonDo competition...

It's kinda a shady practice.

 

[Don Roley]

You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.

What, and let him go off and pretend to be an expert by parroting what I write later on? He has already gone on about how there is a differnce between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, (or is it vice versa.) And he just posted a question indicating he does not even know if the Iga and Koga ninja were Eta or not.

This is like someone going on in a holier-than-thou- attitude about the ways things were fought at the Alamo, and then asking if Davy Crocket was caucasian.

Dale is right, Sojobow knows nothing about the subject matter and only pretends to be an expert when he thinks he can get away with it. Ignore what he says unless he can give you an independent source you can look up for yourself, which he never does.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen please lets keep to the subject and not to the personalities of each other.
This thread has had some good posts and a number of "attacks on the individual" type of posts lets keep the good posts comeing.
with that in mind I will wander a little maybe with this question: How or which words where misused (

misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.

.) and what is the correct meaning and/or words?

 

[Don Roley]

tshadowchaser,
For some reason I can not read the section you are trying to quote. All I see is an empty box.

 

[Don Roley]

You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.

Ok, Dale sent me a note saying that the above is basically what tshadowchaser was quoting.

So what words is Sojobow misusing? Just about every single one.

His saying that there should be a book called the Bugei "ryu" jiten since the source I cited would only cover ryuha, which are different from ryu is just plain out wrong. Hysterically wrong to tell the truth.

Strange, I find Katori Shinto ryu in it, not Katori Shinto ryuha.

Ryuha is just the overall catch phrase for the systems of transmisions. The book has every martial art the author was able to find reference to. Arts like the Ono-ha Itto ryu, Shindo Muso ryu, Togakure ryu, etc.

Or let us take a look at his statement,

Forgive me for mentioning that the term "Ryu" in Japanese originated from the Chinese. It seems this relationship is not very popular to many. However, the Chinese connection, as well as my own school, exist nonetheless.

This almost made me laugh so hard my beer came out of my nose. It seems that Sojobow has read a few things I have written in the past and tried to recycle them as his own to make himself look good. I remember writing somewhere about ryu/ nagare, but it seems that Sojobow really did not understand the full picture before trying to pass himself off as knowedgable.

And one thing I hate is people spreading false information on the internet without knowing the full picture. To do so in an attempt to create a false argument and cover your lack of proof is unforgiveable in my book.

You see, the Japanese took their written language from the Chinese- kind of. The same charecters sometimes have different meanings than the original Chinese. And the combinations they use are very different in most cases. An example, Tienanman square in Japanese is Tenanmon. Very close. But the middle charecter "an" is also pronounced "yasui" in Japanese and means cheap/inexpensive. There is no such meaning in Chinese.

Oh, I still remember in college when my teacher wrote the charecters for "hand" and "paper" on the board and talked about how he loved to get one from his girlfriend. The two girls from Hong Kong laughed as hard as I do reading Sojobow's stuff. It turns out that while that combination means "letter" in Japanese, it means "toilet paper" in Chinese!

Ryu is the same way. I have never seen the term Ryu used to denote transmision in a Chinese art. I can see the charecters in Chinese works and have not seen the charecter ryu as it is used in Japanese. The term and its meaning is purely Japanese. So Dale is right on the mark about how Sojobow acts and how much he knows.

 

[sojobow]

I agree with Tshadowchaser. These are very interesting subjects for discussion. sojobow personally, is not of interest to anyone I hope.

This almost made me laugh so hard my beer came out of my nose. It seems that Sojobow has read a few things I have written in the past and tried to recycle them as his own to make himself look good. I remember writing somewhere about ryu/ nagare, but it seems that Sojobow really did not understand the full picture before trying to pass himself off as knowedgable.

I have read a total - grand total - of one (uno, 1) article written by Don Roley and he knows which one I speak of as I messaged him/posted to him that his "History" was good but that he should not purposefully hide information he may have direct knowledge of. We all should try to build the dastabase of knowledge for fellow martial artist and not purposefully withhold information in order to try and expose others as unknowledgeable. Many others have written on the subject of the differences in Ryu, Ryuha and Nagare. Don Roley was not one of my sources.

You see, the Japanese took their written language from the Chinese- kind of. The same charecters sometimes have different meanings than the original Chinese.

How so in this particular definition. I see no difference in that, as you even agree, the Kanji the Japanese used is actually Chinese. The use of the word "ryu" in both languages seem to be the same.

Ryu is the same way. I have never seen the term Ryu used to denote transmision in a Chinese art. I can see the charecters in Chinese works and have not seen the charecter ryu as it is used in Japanese. The term and its meaning is purely Japanese. So Dale is right on the mark about how Sojobow acts and how much he knows.

You misread my statement. It would be most useful to all if you would simple answer Mr. Tshadowchaser's questions: ergo,

-----How, or which words were misused?;
-----and what is the correct meaning and/or words?

Saying that "just about every single one [word(s) are wrong]" seems a strange response. I am the first to admit that I am no expert. I, as well as all of my teachers live here in the USA. I glean my information as most everyone does, I read and I practice (usually in English). Since Ninjitsu is the most complicated Way I have ever encountered, I need all the help understanding the system as I can possibly get. If I am incorrect, simply show me where and how my arguement scenerio is disjointed and I will be most happy to get on the right track.

Answering Tshadowchasers question will be of interest. Maybe I should ask Sojobo. He was there (smile).

 

[Don Roley]

I am the first to admit that I am no expert.

Stop right there Sparky.

You too have been trying to portray yourself as an expert.

Here is a test, what is your sources for what you wrote about the differences between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, or whatever the heck it was.

Go ahead. I am waiting and may answer your questions about all the errors you made when you deal with the question already on the table. You are too used to ducking questions when it is convinient and I asked that question a long time ago.

 

[sojobow]

Stop right there Sparky.

You too have been trying to portray yourself as an expert.

Here is a test, what is your sources for what you wrote about the differences between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, or whatever the heck it was.

Go ahead. I am waiting and may answer your questions about all the errors you made when you deal with the question already on the table. You are too used to ducking questions when it is convinient and I asked that question a long time ago.

As per your request, I have just completed answering your post in the other thread (Discovery Channel I think). As you keep a close eye on myself and my statements, I find it interesting that you consider my responding, out of courtesy to others posting on forums, as some type of dishonest portrayal. After all, if others ask question and no one answers, I don't think these Forums would have any worth. The objective is communal discussions. I don't see how others on this and other Forums I post on would consider me, in the least, as an expert as both Mr. Seago and yourself constantly respond to every post I issue by reinforcing both of your beliefs that I have some type of mental disorder but you seem to rarely answer the questions asked by the individuals originating the discussions.

Should I now respond as Sparky or as sojobow?

 

[gozanryu]

LOL, HeHeHe, guffaw. . some things never change. . . . though I cant prove that.