New to Kenpo..Need advice

MJS

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BuddhaGirl said:
Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.

Kerry,

Don't get discouraged. As its been said, there are many versions of the art out there. Its all Kenpo, just a different branch on the tree. If this is what you're happy with, then keep on goin'!!!:) Bro John is part of the AKKI, so he should be able to help you out with any questions you may have.

Mike
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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arnisador said:
You're learning American Kenpo there, and Kenpo politics here.

Everything is fine. Keep on keepin' on!

No, the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer. Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it. Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.

Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.

They'll probably boot me off the forum for telling you the truth but I'm used to it.

DarK LorD
 

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Basically Kerry, this is an issue that you'll need to investigate deeply on your own. Clyde is heavily biased, but so am I. I'll tell you that he is partially true....but........in MY opinion, very much incorrect in his conclusion. There are many changed/altered sets, forms and techniques as well as the inclusion of things that weren't in the parent system that the AKKI derives it's American Kenpo Karate from. It is Not identical to the system that it came from, there's no denying that. There are differences between them that makes the AKKI way of doing things Very distinctive. Wether or not that makes it "Not American Kenpo" as Clyde (Dark Kenpo Lord) is eager to assert, depends a great deal on the perspective and biases of the person you ask. My own thoughts on this are that you should get it from the horses mouth! ((Please don't let Mr. Mills know I called him a horse.....hahaha....)) Talk to Mr. Smith or Contact Mr. Mills, tell them about Clyde's opinion and assertion, and ask them what makes the American Kenpo Karate that the AKKI puts out "American Kenpo Karate", I believe that their answer will be very enlightening and no doubt put confidence in your choice to sign up and DIG INTO the good work going on at Mr. Smith's school.
Please give Mr. Smith my regards.

Your Brother
John
 

kroh

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This is all really a non-issue as this very nice, brand spanking new kenshi, came onto this forum asking advice (which the beginning of the post was very helpfull) and almost made it out on a high note. At the end (or what should have been the end) she got a fist full of politics.

Kerry,You will see that there are a lot of posturing and politics that go on in the kempo/kenpo circles. Take the advice of the sempai (seniors) here on the boards and ignore it. While the point Dark Kenpo Lord makes about knowing your lineage is correct, don't get mired in the political garbage that many would sling around.

We all practice martial arts for different reasons. No one is going to care what kind of Kung Foolery we practice when they are trying to take our money, liberty, or life. Train hard and be certain that the art that you train in meets all of your needs for that activity. Although lineage is important to establish where your art is derived from so it can be put into context, politics should be better left to people who are more capable and willing to argue them.

Please keep us informed as to how your training is going .

Regards,
Walt
 

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
No, the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer. Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it. Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.

Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.

They'll probably boot me off the forum for telling you the truth but I'm used to it.

DarK LorD
I'll conceed that she may not be able to just pick up where she left off if she moved and found an LTKK school.
Sean
 

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
No, the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer. Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it. Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.

Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.

They'll probably boot me off the forum for telling you the truth but I'm used to it.

DarK LorD

Hmm... Well, as we all know, Mr. Parker was constantly changing what he taught. Different people claim to have remained true to Mr. Parker's teaching, but what they teach is completely different from each other. Why is this? This is because they trained with Mr. Parker at different times in Mr. Parker's life, and what Mr. Parker was teaching at these different times was different. Mr. Parker understood that Kenpo is a living art that will, and should, continue to change. Mr. Parker is no longer with us to make these changes. It is appropriate that the next generations make changes as they see fit.

I never knew Mr. Parker so I cannot speak for him, but I suspect he would be disappointed in anyone who felt the art should only be done one way and never changed. I also suspect that he would be disappointed in the snittyness that gets displayed by some in the kenpo community.

Grow up.
 

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Here'a repost from kenpoTalk:

Don't want to bust any bubbles, but have you noticed that all of the recent seniors are different in technique understanding? Have you noticed (probably not), that the ancients like myself, and a Steve LaBounty that came waay before Tatum, (whose student on this thread has decided Tatum's way is the only Kenpo, even though Tatum doesn't say that) Trejo, Planas, etc existed, are also 'different.' There is a very good reason for this. Mr. Parker put forth more than one philosophy over his lifetime, and some of them evolved concurrently with each other, while others he dropped altogether.

Therefore, Parker himself didn't do things the same all the time, with everybody over his lifetime. So if you dropped into a Chinese kenpo School run by Frank Trejo's former instructor, Steve Hearring, in Pasadena and didn't recognize anything, does that invalidate Mr. Hearring being one of Parker's Black Belts and managing the Pasadena School in the sixties? He will tell you he's teaching Ed Parker's Kenpo as he learned it. How about Chuck Sullivan, (another ancient) who also teaches Kenpo in the Ed Parker Lineage as he understands it. Or Dave German, or James Ibrao, and how about Joe Dimmick or Dan Inosanto, along with Jim Grumwald, and add Me to the list.

More recently (late 60's forward), the business model of Kenpo based on abstract 'motion' became the dominant understanding. However, that business model is built on, and depends upon individual flexibility, and instructor interpretations to exist. THERE HAS NEVER EVER BEEN ONE WAY TO DO ANY OF THE TECHNIQUES FROM THE BUSINESS MODEL. MR. PARKER NEVER EVER TAUGHT ANYONE A DEFINITIVE WAY TO DO OR TEACH ANY TECHNIQUE FROM THAT MODEL.

Mr. Parker produced a business guide (nicknamed the "The Red Book"), that included techniques, forms, sets, and BUSINESS PRACTICES for running a school for the head instructor. The guide was based on the Arthur Murray Dance Studios Business Plan. The Dance Studio chain taught a basic idea of 'dances,' and of course allowed students and teachers to interpret and express themselves through these dances. Like the Dance Studio, (this is where the studio term comes from), this was only a GUIDE for the business franchise owner.

For the business of kenpo, Mr. Parker taught concepts that he felt COULD be utilized in various technique scenarios, presented in the WEB OF KNOWLEDGE. The W.O.K. issured instructors and students had to address various attacks (particular dances), the written techniques that were starting point IDEAS (for teaching), and the written forms and sets that added additional structure.

I was there, and no one was the same when he was alive, so why would you think it would be different now? Students, black belts, and school owners came and went all the time, all taking or bringing whatever their interpretations were with them. Every 'teacher' has always been allowed, and encouraged to develop their own curriculum. Every teacher and student has always been encouraged to, 'tailor, rearrange, graft, insert, delete, prefix, suffix, and add WHATEVER they felt was necessary to insure business success and on the street success. This INCLUDED bringing information from other styles as long as you felt it worked. Parker would send students to other schools to see what they were doing. "If you see something good, bring it back." he would say.

I sat in the back of a seminar with the Old Man while Parker went over several techniques with the group. A couple of green belts were having problems with the understanding Mr. Parker presented. One whispered to the other, "Mr. Parker is teaching the technique wrong."

My point is, what made the business of Kenpo different from traditional arts is, ALL involved were given COMPLETE flexibility to make anything and everything FUNCTIONAL FOR THEMSELVES utilizing Parker's 'ideas' and basic structure. Mr. Parker gave them concepts, with principles of kenpo, and a written guide to use until he saw them again, to teach additional concepts.

It is this flexibility that allowed the 'business' of Kenpo to proliferate, and without it, we probably would not have this discussion. You can't have it both ways. That flexibility has allowed all to exist somewhere in the Parker Kenpo Lineage paradigm without anyone ever being 'wrong.' In Mr. Parker's vision for kenpo, the only 'wrong' is when you did something that wouldn't work for you on the street, and you got hurt. Other than that, it really didn't matter as far as he was concerened.

The key element for a business based on acquiring "self defense skills," is that students believed in what they were taught and that it was fuctional and worked for them. If you were attacked and you survived, then it did its job. When you take a class in self defense and you get attacked, no one will say, "Did you do the technique correctly? Or did you screw up Five Swords?" They ask what did you do to be successful, and whatever it was, and whatever you call it, they say "Cool!"

If you could pass a federal law today that everyone in the Parker Lineage had to do everything the same, everyone would change the name of their art, and keep doing what they're doing.

"Although there are differences and most have a preference for what they are doing, none of the ranking students of Ed Parker I know of have suggested someone else's flavor isn't Kenpo. On these forums we mostly have good discussions and friendly debate and even agree to disagree. But there are neanderthal mentally suspect trolls who contribute nothing but discourse, and stand by waiting to bring a negative so they can get attention. Every now and then you'll get a chimp beating on his chest saying, 'look at me, I'm a gorilla.' My Grandmother used to always say, "Just remember, one monkey doesn't stop the show."

I'll close with a Parker Story.

A young man comes into the school and begins questioning Parker about different scenarios of defense. 'What if a guy throws a punch?' Mr. Parker would answer. 'Well what if he kicks?' Mr. Parker would answer. This went on for a while with the young man conjuring up attacking scenario after scenario attempting to stump Parker for an answer.

Finally in frustration the young man thought for a second, and finally said, "Well Mr. Parker what would you do if it was 3 o'clock in the morning, and you were in a dark alley in a bad part of town, and a guy jumped out and attacked you with a trash can?

Mr. Parker broke into side splitting laughter while the young man had a puzzled look on his face. "What's so funny?" He said. Mr. Parker in his classic demonstrable style, walked over to the guy with a big grin on his face. When he got close to him he leaned forward and immediately stopped smiling and put a scowl on his face. "You don't get it kid. I would be the one with the trash can. Get it?" The young man said, "Yes sir!" and left abruptly with Parker continuing to frown and turn his back. After a moment Parker said quietly, still frowning, "Is he gone?" I said, "yeah he split." Silence for a moment, and the we both burst into laughter. "Man that dude really took off, but I think he understands now." Parker said.

Do you understand?
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MJS

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IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best. Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff. If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says. Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.
 

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MJS said:
IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best. Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff. If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says. Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.
Amen Mike.
 

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MJS said:
IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best. Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff. If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says. Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.

Hear hear!
 

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Kerry,

Keep at it and don't let the politics get you down. Clyde is of the opinion that if Larry Tatum didn't or doesn't teach it, then it's not Kenpo. Not to slight Mr. Tatum, but his way is not the only way. If you feel that what you are learning has merit and you enjoy it, then go with it.

HKF
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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hongkongfooey said:
Kerry,

Keep at it and don't let the politics get you down. Clyde is of the opinion that if Larry Tatum didn't or doesn't teach it, then it's not Kenpo. Not to slight Mr. Tatum, but his way is not the only way. If you feel that what you are learning has merit and you enjoy it, then go with it.

HKF

Hmm, on your profile it says you're an American Kenpo BEGINNER, and all the sudden you have the answers to Kenpo I suppose?

Buddha Girl asked a question, I responded that we didn't have enough information to ascertain any level of helpfulness. Once the information was received, I then pointed her in the direction in which to satisfy her curiosity in the appropriate place, where her questions would be answered by others training in what she's doing; and you guys bring this on me? What a sad bunch of people you are.

Proves my point, people aren't happy unless they're being lied to, and told how everything will just be alright no matter what in their Happy PC Utopia land.

Life is great, you get a free trip around the sun every year.


DarK LorD
 

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
Buddha Girl asked a question, I responded that we didn't have enough information to ascertain any level of helpfulness. Once the information was received, I then pointed her in the direction in which to satisfy her curiosity in the appropriate place, where her questions would be answered by others training in what she's doing; and you guys bring this on me? What a sad bunch of people you are.

DarK LorD

What you state is a half-truth. Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.

I don't know anything first hand about Mr. Mills or his organization so I am certainly in no position to act as their Champion here on Martialtalk. But what you stated in your previous posts is inflammatory and inappropriate, especially when you are telling this to a complete beginner to the martial arts. BuddhaGirl is a complete novice, new to the arts and kenpo, with all of two lessons under her belt. She has expressed a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for her training, as well as confiding to the Forum Community some pretty personal issues surrounding her weight. And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful. Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person. You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk. You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with. This is your choice.
 

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Flying Crane said:
Hmm... Well, as we all know, Mr. Parker was constantly changing what he taught. Different people claim to have remained true to Mr. Parker's teaching, but what they teach is completely different from each other. Why is this? This is because they trained with Mr. Parker at different times in Mr. Parker's life, and what Mr. Parker was teaching at these different times was different. Mr. Parker understood that Kenpo is a living art that will, and should, continue to change. Mr. Parker is no longer with us to make these changes. It is appropriate that the next generations make changes as they see fit.

I never knew Mr. Parker so I cannot speak for him, but I suspect he would be disappointed in anyone who felt the art should only be done one way and never changed. I also suspect that he would be disappointed in the snittyness that gets displayed by some in the kenpo community.

Grow up.

You've never met Mr. Parker, and you say you cannot speak for him, so why do you?

Change, like a car right? Seems they're bringing back a bit of retro in the Mustang and the Camaro these days, wonder why, cuz they had the right idea then and too much CHANGE didn't sell now. People don't like change just to change things, only if it's an improvement. I haven't seen improvement from any of the offshoots of EPAK yet. And I'm always surprised to find out just how much people are willing to pay for those original Camaros and Mustangs.


DarK LorD
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Flying Crane said:
What you state is a half-truth. Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.

I don't know anything first hand about Mr. Mills or his organization so I am certainly in no position to act as their Champion here on Martialtalk. But what you stated in your previous posts is inflammatory and inappropriate, especially when you are telling this to a complete beginner to the martial arts. BuddhaGirl is a complete novice, new to the arts and kenpo, with all of two lessons under her belt. She has expressed a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for her training, as well as confiding to the Forum Community some pretty personal issues surrounding her weight. And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful. Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person. You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk. You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with. This is your choice.

You show me exact text where I belittle, demeaned, insulted, or any other negative post to the school or assoc. in this thread. Half truth, it's the whole truth, and I could care less if I alienate the forum populace. I posted in a respectful way, just because YOU don't see it that way, now I'm the bad guy?????

Buddha Girl deserves to know what she's getting into, I didn't write her and ask her to post on this forum, she found it all by herself. Now she's an informed consumer because she did her own research, got differing opinions, and can now make an informed assessment of her choices.

Oh yea, nice of you to bring up the weight issue!!!



DarK LorD
 

Lisa

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Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-LISA DENEKA
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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
You show me exact text where I belittle, demeaned, insulted, or any other negative post to the school or assoc. in this thread. Half truth, it's the whole truth, and I could care less if I alienate the forum populace. I posted in a respectful way, just because YOU don't see it that way, now I'm the bad guy?????

DarK LorD

Well, I am haven't figured out how to bring in quotes from several past posts into a new post, so I'll give you some references.

Your post, #21, the hostility is pretty evident: "The only material available for you is only what the AKKI will/can provide, which is little."

Your post #32, more sarcasm, your reference to committing to contracts, implying that the school is a McDojo and will simply take her money and give nothing in return.

Your post #42, the whole first paragraph is very sarcastic.

If you honestly don't feel that you delivered any hostility or sarcasm with these posts, and if I am in truth misunderstanding what you have said, then you have my apology. I know that sometimes things get misunderstood on the internet, but these postings look very hostile and sarcastic to me. You might feel that you are simply being honest, but it really really comes across looking hostile and sarcastic and disrespectful. This is my point. You might want to reexamine how you state things, especially when you are in disagreement.

You may not care if you alienate the populace on Martialtalk, but your reputation will carry beyond the internet here into real life. People form opinions based on how others present themselves.
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Flying Crane said:
What you state is a half-truth. Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.

. And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful. Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person. You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk. You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with. This is your choice.

Talk to your supporting members about this then.

DarK LorD
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Flying Crane said:
Well, I am haven't figured out how to bring in quotes from several past posts into a new post, so I'll give you some references.

Your post, #21, the hostility is pretty evident: "The only material available for you is only what the AKKI will/can provide, which is little."

Your post #32, more sarcasm, your reference to committing to contracts, implying that the school is a McDojo and will simply take her money and give nothing in return.

Your post #42, the whole first paragraph is very sarcastic.

If you honestly don't feel that you delivered any hostility or sarcasm with these posts, and if I am in truth misunderstanding what you have said, then you have my apology. I know that sometimes things get misunderstood on the internet, but these postings look very hostile and sarcastic to me. You might feel that you are simply being honest, but it really really comes across looking hostile and sarcastic and disrespectful. This is my point. You might want to reexamine how you state things, especially when you are in disagreement.

You may not care if you alienate the populace on Martialtalk, but your reputation will carry beyond the internet here into real life. People form opinions based on how others present themselves.

If it looks hostile and sarcastic, then that's your perception of it, not the intent, it's simply the truth, with no sugar coating. Like I said, people love to be lied to, and you obviously have other issues that made you perceive it the way you have. Most schools require a long term contract, and before spending your hard earned money, it's best to know what those fees coming from your pocket will get you, hence, the reference to the contract, nothing more, nothing less, yet your perception is biased to your own demons in that regard.

Oh yea, why do I need to reexamine the way I write, to please you?

DarK LorD
 
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BuddhaGirl

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I have enjoyed reading everyones posts, and I understand that you all are very dedicated and passionate about the art (regardless which style you follow). If I have gotten anything from this thread it is that Kenpo and martial arts in general is something that brings out that passion in people and so it is definately something I want to be a part of.

I have read over these messages several times and I have learned so much in just a few short days. So keep the spirited (yet respectful) discourse coming. I'm a big girl, I can handle a few rough words ;) And I will take from your comments what I can and use it to become a more informed member of the martial arts community. I may never attain the knowledge level of most of you here, but I will enjoy the journey and my body will benefit. That's what I am hoping to get from this. And maybe some day I will have the opportunity to kick some of your butts (in a controlled and safe environment) in my American Kenpo/Non-American Kenpo style. :)

Kerry
 

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