National flags in class

tellner

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Most all of the arts were intended as a way of life,

Got anything resembling evidence for this statement? I don't mean "My organization says it, so it must be so." I mean something that a scholar would regard with something besides politely-concealed scorn. I can think of plenty of martial arts which were always competitive. Others were military training which, arguably, is a lifestyle while one is a soldier. Plenty of others were just something people did for self defense, fun, prize-fighting or because duelling was a local custom.

And what precisely do you mean by "a way of life"? Do you mean that the students lived in barracks at the martial arts school? Did they only marry within the style? Was it how they made a living? Was their boxing club also the site of their religious temple or the focus of their political affiliation? Was the boxing, wrestling or fencing coach their rabbi or their tribal chieftan who dictated every part of their lives?

Fighting has always been something people did. So has practicing and learning about it. If something is a recognized part of life it does not follow that it provides the mold into which the rest of life must fit.

There's a metric buttload of unexamined assumptions here. And you still haven't come close to answering my first question.

and yes in the recent past some martial arts organizations have abandoned any tradition in favor of converting to a sport.

Martial arts has always had a large sports component. Even duelling is often a sport, a dangerous one, but a competition nonetheless. The same people who like to fight - primarily young men with more testosterone than myelin - like to compete for status, money and (ultimately) breeding rights. The whole "philosophy" and "way of life" thing is something added. Sometimes it's a way of keeping the young bucks from getting into stupid fights and burning down the neighborhood. Sometimes it's a way of training warriors so that they can do the terrible things their life forces on them without turning completely psychotic. For a very, very small few it's part of religious devotion in regular life or monastic communities.

Which sort are you speaking about? Or are you referring to something else entirely. So far you've invoked the symbols "respect", "honor", "tradition" and "way of life" without giving adding even a drop of new information. Please don't stoop to saying that I don't understand or haven't been initiated into a "true" martial art. I can guarantee that I have and swallowed all the stuff you're reciting for years.

Regardless of when or where the art originated, showing respect to your country by hanging the flag in your school, and that of the country of origin for whatever style you practice, should not be looked down upon.
I don't look down on it. I just don't see the point. What I do see is an attempt to pull a fast one on the students. By associating patriotism and the school the teacher is implicitly making associating the two. The boxing club gets mixed up with nation or, worse, religion. The student learns to treat the two with the same degree of regard and loyalty. This is not entirely honest, and it places a glorified gym on the same level as one's country or faith.

As far as adorning your uniform with flags and patches, that differs from school to school.
It's also strictly speaking against the law at least in the United States. There is a legal standard for flag etiquette which does not include wearing the flag on one's sports clothes any more than it would include wearing it on one's jockstrap. I would not presume to do either. If the flag is to be displayed in a club or business it shows disrespect to do it other than in the nation's approved fashion.

Maintaining those ties to the origin of your art in my opinion is the least you can do for those who dedicated a life time of training to pass them down to future gererations. For you it may just be a hobby. It is not that way for everyone, and is presumptuous to make that generalization.
I'm not buying the "you do not understand respect" ploy here. I understand exactly what is being done. I just recognize that some of it is worthwhile and some of it is not. And some of the "not' is actively wrong.

I absolutely respect the people who taught me. By extension I have high regard for many of the people who taught them. I take what I do seriously. It is important to me personally because of the time and effort I put into it, a process which extends into other parts of life like any other practice treated the same way. That in no way means that I must agree that martial arts is inherently different than any other activity and should be judged by a different standard.
 

girlbug2

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How weird...I have never seen a Japanese flag in a Kenpo dojo or a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu flag in a BJJ dojo. Granted I've only been in a few. Still I get the impression that the senseis are very respectful of the origins of their arts.
 

jarrod

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How weird...I have never seen a Japanese flag in a Kenpo dojo or a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu flag in a BJJ dojo. Granted I've only been in a few. Still I get the impression that the senseis are very respectful of the origins of their arts.

or an english flag at a boxing club, or the french flag at a greco-roman wrestling club...

for the most part, you will see flag flying at schools where the art has had close ties to nationalism &/or militarism. i don't care for displaying flags at MA gyms for the same reason i don't care to stand at attention, bark "yes, sensei, no, sensei" at every command, or perform excessive bowing. but if that trips someone else's trigger, it's no concern of mine. it does, however, have it's origins in creating group solidarity, reinforcing chain of command, & all that sort of stuff. some people really like that & that's fine, but it's not for me.

jf
 

Cirdan

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How weird...I have never seen a Japanese flag in a Kenpo dojo or a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu flag in a BJJ dojo. Granted I've only been in a few. Still I get the impression that the senseis are very respectful of the origins of their arts.

Japanese Dojos tend to be minimalistic with little decoration. Some places will have a small picture of the founder, potted plants or even a Shinto altar. However how much respect you pay to them is kind of up to you. When we bow it is more a sign of respect to each other and the room rather than any nation, religion or specific induvidual.

Not sure about BJJ clubs but some of the practicioners like to put a lot of patches on the gi including the Brazilian flag.
 

jarrod

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i have seen a bjj club or two with a brazilian flag, but i haven't seen anyone bow to it or perform any sort of rituals around it.

jf
 

Gizmo

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In our classes we display only the school banner. Korean flag is displayed only when we have a guest Korean instructor, and always together with our Polish flag. Many students do wear Polish flag patches on the dobok sleeve.
 

Earl Weiss

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Say what?



You have been taught that being in your club, wearing funny clothes - a Korean rebranding of Funakoshi's reworking of Kano's wrestling gear - .


Actualy Steven Hayes tells a stoy of visiting a Japanese museum and seeing what he thought was an old Gi. Found out it was the underwear the Samurai wore. Seems the Samurai would practice in that to avoid damaging and soiling the more delicate outer garments.

So, it seems the gi and Dobok were likely re worked versions of Samurai underwear.
 

astrobiologist

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Currently we have flags of America, Okinawa, the Philippines, China, and Japan on our walls. The only Korean flags that are visible are in our showcase.
 

dancingalone

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I'm personally uncomfortable with the idea of displaying flags within a dojo and conducting a ritual of reverence around them. It smacks too much of WWII era nationalism which undoubtedly played a role in the history around Shotokan karate's origins and evolution. Then the Koreans did much the same as they constructed taekwondo from a hodgepodge of sources, principally Shotokan itself, building up connections to legends like the Hwarangdo and taekyon.

Best to leave the politics out of your martial arts, I think.
 

Tez3

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In our classes we display only the school banner. Korean flag is displayed only when we have a guest Korean instructor, and always together with our Polish flag. Many students do wear Polish flag patches on the dobok sleeve.

We are thinking of adding a Polish flag to our collection of Korean, Japanese, Brazilian and the Union flag we have, as we have a few Polish students and have links to Warsaw MMA.We always have Polish fighters on our shows.
We don't bow to any of them they are there purely for decoration, we've recently added the Help for Heroes Flag too. As seen here carried by Marine Ben McBean who ran the London Marathon a couple of weeks ago.

ben_mcbean.jpg


And I'll leave you to think about which flag we respect the most.
 

hkfuie

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...Without roots and tradition, we are just a sport, no better than t-ball or soccer.

I don't want to attack Jphtkd's ideas or beliefs. You have every right to believe TKD or any martial art is superior to other activities. I, too, like to think of martial arts as more than "just sport." But I stop myself short of believing what I do is truly superior to the activities others do, or makes me part of something more than soccer or t-ball.

I think more important than what a person does, is how a person does what they do. I don't get more meaning from which specific activities I choose to fill my life with, I get it from how I do those specific activities. Am I clear at all? ;) BTW, that's advice I could give myself every day of my life, so thanks for the opportunity to remind myself of that.

A few years back I would have agreed with you, Jphtkd, but the longer I spend time in the martial arts, well, some of my ideas about these things have changed.

:)
 

Tez3

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I think even if TKD or any martial art were a sport, it would still be a high ideal. When I was at school taking part in sport was considered a must for personal growth. It taught, it was believed the virtues one needed in life, very much the thought that it was the taking part that matters. You were to be a gracious winner and give no excuses or whinge if you lost. Being a good sport is perhaps very much a British thing, 'playing the game' means being fair. Many of our metaphors are sport related. Waterloo and much else has been won on the playing fields of England.
I think you may have different impressions of sport? The object of winning seems far more important and much is lost from this I believe. The idea of sport seems to mean either being paid loads of money or it's merely a hobby.
 

Jphtkd

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That reasoning is exactly why the ATA has been so successful in their expansion throughout the US. They sell an activity for kids to play Taekwondo for a little while then send them home.

Your point about "how" instead of "what" has merit, but finding the rare sports coach that makes the difference in a child's life is becoming almost nonexistant these days. Most of them focus on the naturally gifted, the ones they think "have potential" and ignore anything past ability in the game.

I learned that distinction training with my traditional okinawan weapons instructor, then heading over to do olympic style sparring class for competition. In one class, I learned a martial art that had bearing and meaning outside of the dojo. The other started and ended inside the ring. After 25 years of training, I have seen it all.


I don't want to attack Jphtkd's ideas or beliefs. You have every right to believe TKD or any martial art is superior to other activities. I, too, like to think of martial arts as more than "just sport." But I stop myself short of believing what I do is truly superior to the activities others do, or makes me part of something more than soccer or t-ball.

I think more important than what a person does, is how a person does what they do. I don't get more meaning from which specific activities I choose to fill my life with, I get it from how I do those specific activities. Am I clear at all? ;) BTW, that's advice I could give myself every day of my life, so thanks for the opportunity to remind myself of that.

A few years back I would have agreed with you, Jphtkd, but the longer I spend time in the martial arts, well, some of my ideas about these things have changed.

:)
 

Kacey

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We have an American flag, which we salute (with a bow) as part of our class opening and closing ceremonies. As a teacher, I start my work day with the Pledge of Allegiance broadcast over the intercom - I see little difference between saluting the flag in either circumstance.

As far as the use of Korean terminology, there's a very pragmatic purpose: it provides a common language for students who compete internationally. We had a group of students from Puerto Rico attend several of our events - few spoke English, and fewer of us spoke Spanish - but we were able to communicate what activity was coming up by use of our common (if limited) Korean.
 

Tez3

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We don't bow to flags, we don't do it in the club nor does much reverance get put on our national flag in the ourside the dojo world.
With our students the flag means little really, however their regiments colours mean everything. The colours are the battle honours going back centuries. These are revered, honoured and protected. We have several regiments represented in our club and trust me, between them, the battle honours are very very impressive.
 

Earl Weiss

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After 25 years of training, I have seen it all.

I envy you. I have 37 Years In TKD and a number in Hapkido going back to 1975 and Ju Jitsu going Back to 1975 and Judo Going back to 1971.

I haven't seen it all yet. I still find I am learning stuff all the time.
 

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