My own MA...

zDom

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Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?

What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?
 

Indie12

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Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?

What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?

Hehe, slap him in the face with your belt/sash, then make him do finger tip push ups in the snow 1000x!
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shesulsa

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Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?

What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?

But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way. He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well. This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.

He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.

And he wants to make a system out of it.
 

Indie12

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But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way. He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well. This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.

He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.

And he wants to make a system out of it.

Well we don't know if he 'has' or 'hasn't', he just 'hasn't' proven it to us yet! And if you look at 99.99% of all hybrid systems nowdays, that's exactly what they are!
[ Individual-Fighting-Approach]

The *Why* it works, *How* it works *When* it works *What* works are several questions needing answered! Maybe it's hard to explain via a debate forum?
 

shesulsa

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Well we don't know if he 'has' or 'hasn't', he just 'hasn't' proven it to us yet! And if you look at 99.99% of all hybrid systems nowdays, that's exactly what they are!
[ Individual-Fighting-Approach]

The *Why* it works, *How* it works *When* it works *What* works are several questions needing answered! Maybe it's hard to explain via a debate forum?

Which is nice - but I daresay most folks nowadays are more interested in starting their own style instead of delving deeper into that which already exists. There are often many many answers in history and background ... to go on ignoring them is sad and killing some good arts, methinks.

My money is on #2 of my previous post - first he's developing his own style - then there's not much different to the arts - then he's going to live in a cave in China. I feel like John Stossel here.
 

Indie12

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Which is nice - but I daresay most folks nowadays are more interested in starting their own style instead of delving deeper into that which already exists. There are often many many answers in history and background ... to go on ignoring them is sad and killing some good arts, methinks.

My money is on #2 of my previous post - first he's developing his own style - then there's not much different to the arts - then he's going to live in a cave in China. I feel like John Stossel here.

True, but some of those folks have legitimate reasons for doing so and with intelliectual abilities. If you want my personal opinion, I don't think it's Arts killing Arts rather then people killing Arts through misrepresentation!

I'll stick with #1. Then he's traveling around the world in a boeing 747 by himself with millions in his pockets!
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MJS

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Folks,

Before this thread gets any further out of hand, let me address a few things.

1) The discussion of 'creating your own art' have been discussed endlessly on here. 9 times out of 10, people aren't creating anything new, just repackaging stuff from other arts. Why anyone would want to craft their 'own' art when there are many others already in existance, is beyond me.

12: Debateable...

2) Please take a few minutes to read thru the forum rules that everyone agreed to upon joining, specifically the part on trolling.

12: I've noticed that alot in many forums... Why isn't more action taken?

3) If people are here to have a serious discussion, fine. If people are here to stir the pot and do nothing but troll, you'll find your time here will be cut very short.

12: Typical of many, many forums...

4) If you're having an issue with a member, their post, etc., dont fire back at the person, use the RTM feature, which is the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post. It'll generate a report for the forum mods to look at and deal with, if any action is deemed necessary.

12: Well would you be so kind as to describe what requirements are needed for action to be deemed necessary?
It's not quite clear on what merits a "deemed necessary" action/response.

That being said, lets keep the thread civil please.

MJS
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To address your questions from top to bottom.

Whats debateable? I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change.

You've noticed it in other areas here? Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid. We all have lives outside of Martial Talk. That being said, sometimes things are missed. Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time. While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics. Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed.

I wont speak for other forums, just this one. Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much.

I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right? If not, please do so. :) They're laid out pretty plain and simple. But since you asked, let me give you an example. If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post. People disagree, its part of life, deal with it. Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation.

But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it. It generates a report and the forum mods will review it. As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs. We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem. Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken. Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not.

Hope this answered your questions. In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly.

Mike
 

Indie12

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To address your questions from top to bottom.

Whats debateable? I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change.

12: Again debateable! I've seen many 'talks' and 'improved' systems, I'll agree not all new, but every once in a while you get someone with an original idea!

You've noticed it in other areas here? Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid. We all have lives outside of Martial Talk. That being said, sometimes things are missed. Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time. While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics. Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed.

12: True, however smaller issue could become bigger problems if not caught early!

I wont speak for other forums, just this one. Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much.

12: Agreed!

I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right? If not, please do so. :) They're laid out pretty plain and simple. But since you asked, let me give you an example. If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post. People disagree, its part of life, deal with it. Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation.

12: Yes, I've read the rules prior to joining (if you notice it asks you to read before clicking)... Disagreeing is fine, however what about tone in which you respond to a post? Attitude I guess? Bare in mind that pretty much anything is reportable... Though not actionable.

But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it. It generates a report and the forum mods will review it. As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs. We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem. Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken. Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not.

12: Just out of curiosity, is that a requirement for the Mods? No offense but I'm not particularly trustworthy of forum Mods.

12: 3 day limit? So in other words if a report of abuse is reported and not gotten to (understandably due to large volume) it wouldn't be dealt with?

12: Why not discuss action taken with the forum members? Long as your not naming names, it's not a confidentiality break.

Hope this answered your questions. In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly.

Mike

No Prob! :)
 

MJS

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To address your questions from top to bottom.

Whats debateable? I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change.

12: Again debateable! I've seen many 'talks' and 'improved' systems, I'll agree not all new, but every once in a while you get someone with an original idea!

You've noticed it in other areas here? Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid. We all have lives outside of Martial Talk. That being said, sometimes things are missed. Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time. While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics. Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed.

12: True, however smaller issue could become bigger problems if not caught early!

I wont speak for other forums, just this one. Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much.

12: Agreed!

I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right? If not, please do so. :) They're laid out pretty plain and simple. But since you asked, let me give you an example. If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post. People disagree, its part of life, deal with it. Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation.

12: Yes, I've read the rules prior to joining (if you notice it asks you to read before clicking)... Disagreeing is fine, however what about tone in which you respond to a post? Attitude I guess? Bare in mind that pretty much anything is reportable... Though not actionable.

But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it. It generates a report and the forum mods will review it. As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs. We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem. Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken. Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not.

12: Just out of curiosity, is that a requirement for the Mods? No offense but I'm not particularly trustworthy of forum Mods.

12: 3 day limit? So in other words if a report of abuse is reported and not gotten to (understandably due to large volume) it wouldn't be dealt with?

12: Why not discuss action taken with the forum members? Long as your not naming names, it's not a confidentiality break.

Hope this answered your questions. In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly.

Mike


Top to bottom again.

We'll agree to disagree.

I agree, and didn't mean to imply they werent important. Anyone can report an issue. If people see something and dont report it, vs. someone who sees it and reports it, those that dont, dont have any grounds to complain. If we dont know about it, how can we act? Again, we can't all be on 24-7.

Yes, the tone should be friendly.

Sorry, I cant help you with your trust issues. Again, as I said, everyone isnt on at the same time, so we give 3 days to allow all mods to see, discuss and come to a decision. There are some things that people felt were rude, but it was decided that it wasnt. We do our best to be as fair as possible across the board. I never said we'd disregard the ticket. I said that after review it may be decided that its not actionable.

Because its nobodies business other than the forum mods and the person in question.
 

elder999

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But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way. He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well. This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.

He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.

And he wants to make a system out of it.


That may be, but it's not what he said:

Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.
.

Once again, from the English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for dictionary, and explains why I used the other definition of "tonicity"):

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1][SIZE=+0]to·nic·i·ty[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] (t
omacr.gif
-n
ibreve.gif
s
prime.gif
ibreve.gif
-t
emacr.gif
) [SIZE=-2]KEY[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]
pl. [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]to·nic·i·ties[/SIZE][/FONT]
  1. Normal firmness or functional readiness in body tissues or organs.
  2. The sustained partial contraction of resting or relaxed muscles.
 

jks9199

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Regarding moderator action: Our general philosophy & goal is to do the least moderation possible. So -- we will try to issue a fairly gentle, public reminder first. No one is singled out, and it probably won't seem much like action is being taken. Let me liken this to a patrol officer driving down the street... The next general step is a formal warning. These are pretty clear... (Attention all users...) After that -- we get into private messages and infractions.

We don't discuss particular actions publicly because it ain't your business if User12345 got a penalty or not, as a general rule. Praise in public, punish in private...
 

Chris Parker

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Well, things have moved in odd directions in the last day or so, I'm just going to deal with the thread topic as it has developed (and leave MJS to deal with procedural issues.... enjoy, Mike!).

Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.

"Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."

This is related to one of the core concepts of my MA.
It is similar to the water concept in Taijiquan or which Bruce Lee mentioned.

Now, personally, based on the way you have posted (and the context in which you put this), I'm not sure you really get what Bruce Lee was talking about there.... there's a big difference between Bruce's famous quote and the idea of elemental concepts guiding a martial art.

Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.

So... you relax and try to not fall over? Gotta say, by itself, that's not really much of anything, and is not related to reactions "under any circumstance" either.

So here's where you get to show that you have something... how do you maintain constant balance? What are your stance concepts and movement concepts that reflect that?

While the wind part focuses on smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance, no matter how exhausing, rough or painful, the lightning part focuses on maximized speed and strength equally.
The philosophy is "you can't beat what you can't see".

Okay, the first part (smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance), frankly, isn't anything. And saying "under any circumstances" as often as you are again shows a lack of understanding, as that is not a good idea in the slightest. The "lightening" aspect again isn't anything but vaguaries. As for the "philosophy", that is, first off, not a philosophy but a maxim, or at best a concept or belief, and secondly, is fundamentally flawed from the get-go. But for more detailed understanding of what it seems like you are getting towards, look to concepts of Koteki Ryuda, Sen no Sen, Sen Sen no Sen, and, honestly, metsubishi.

The idea behind the lightning method is basically to generate as much acceleration as possible in a time frame as small as possible.

But how do you do that? Without a method, there is no martial art, just words that you think make something impressive. You have to have a method to achieve all of these things (which is what I was getting at in the "delusional list" of questions earlier, son), and that cannot be created in a vacuum (from scratch). Add to that the fact that it is highly unlikely (I would probably state impossible) for you to have come up with anything actually new, unless completely unviable.

Whereas the regular training would change my speed from extremely fast at the beginning, to average speed a few weeks/months later in trade for higher strength, my lightning methods constantly increase speed and strength.
I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.

I really don't think you understood the "regular training" then. It sounds like you had a method that you thought was "fast", and the instructor looked at you, and said "sure, but here's how to make it effective and powerful", which sacrificed some speed for that power or accuracy. Or your method was just way out for the art your were studying. Frankly, that's not a failing of the art, it's a failing of the student from where I'm sitting.

And if you don't know why something you have "works", then you have nothing. Just so you know.

So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.

Your intuition has "proven to be right" according to who? How was it tested? So far I've heard a lot of classroom theory, but nothing to indicate anything real. Video will help (and no, you don't have to be fighting someone, but a base covering of some of your methods will be useful. I'll be able to see whether or not there's anything viable then, and honestly probably be able to sy if it's similar to anything else that I've encountered... which is a fair bit).

Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^

Er, yeah. This entire section is, well, nothing. Sure, you may have confidence, but that doesn't mean it has any founding in reality. Again, if all of this is coming from what you think "works" or not, that is hardly enough for us to justify such confidence based on the understanding you've demonstrated so far.

Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. Walking your way means enduring and persisting.

Now, just to give you the benefit of the doubt here again, can you talk about the philosophy of Kyokushin? Beyond the little bit you listed there, as that is only a very small bit of it, and not really how I would describe Kyokushin's philosophy myself.
 

teekin

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So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.
Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^

Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. Walking your way means enduring and persisting.

So your a persistant pananoid delusional? :uhyeah: No really, who is this? Can we have a hint? Do you carry a short sword favored by the roman centurians? Perhaps use to roll on Thusrday nights long long ago? Are fairly good at the striking arts? Have a killer anaconda choke? Can we have a hint?:spitcoffee:

Lori
 

shesulsa

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These are not the ghosts you're looking for.

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Fenglong,

I felt I should make it known that having read through the continued discussion in this thread, and having reached a deeper level of clarity regarding where it actually is that you are coming from, it appears I completely misunderstood what you were saying intially.
My comments on page 3 were not intended to encourage this at all. Rather, I had thought you were on a path to discover a more personal interpretation of the truths and concepts held within the martial arts in order to further your development as a person and as a martial artist. This I do encourage, as this I believe in. I daresay it would prove immensely beneficial for you to reconsider travelling this path, at least for the time being.
There have been some very insightful and valuable statements made by some very knowledgable martial artists in this thread, and I believe you have done yourself a grave disservice in dismissing them so quickly.
If you are serious about your progress, and if you will succeed in an enterprise where most fail, then you must exhibit humility in the face of challenge here. Ignore the voice of pride in the face of these questions that have been asked of you in this thread, and allow yourself to truly consider what their answers may be - and be honest with yourself. You stand only to gain.
It is not easy. That's the way it is.

With all the quoting of philosophical statements and such I would like to end by quoting one which holds great significance to me, in the hope it may prove useful to you also;

He who fails to confront himself constantly, fails to transcend his own weaknesses.
 

SFC JeffJ

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Looking at this thread had got me thinking about a lot of things I haven't considered in a long time.

Personally, I think the term "martial artist" is overused. Most of us are more like craftsmen, using tools and stratagems developed by others. For most of us, adapting those to our own uses is enough.

Every now and then, someone will come along who starts off making this adaption, then either realizes, or maybe one of his students realizes, in making this adaption, has come up with something that applies to more than just him. Maybe even something that is a bit closer to being "universal". I think the people who manage to do this are the real Martial Artists.

Now the OP states that he trained in a couple of different MA's for about 10 years and studied for an additional 5 (whatever that means). Unless the guy is some kinda savant, and from reading his additional posts, it seems he hasn't even figured out what works for himself let alone anything close to the resemblance of anything that could even be considered a new martial art.

Jeff
 

Chris Parker

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Hmm, don't think I'd quite agree there. I see what you're saying, but it really doesn't translate that way. If that were the criteria for the term "artist" then all actors would need to do exclusively improvisation, bands couldn't play covers or the same songs repeatedly, and so on. Art is more about the personal expression of established media and skills, often creative, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be a new creation, just that it needs to be a personal expression. This is how you can have five people show you the same kata, but it will be different for each of them (the level of artistry can be seen in the personal expressions). Adaptation can be part of it, but more often than not it just happens to be part of the overall expression of that person... and that adaptation is not necessarily artistically valid (or martially valid, for that matter), so just because adaptation happens does not put it above others who don't "adapt".
 

SFC JeffJ

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Hmm, don't think I'd quite agree there. I see what you're saying, but it really doesn't translate that way. If that were the criteria for the term "artist" then all actors would need to do exclusively improvisation, bands couldn't play covers or the same songs repeatedly, and so on. Art is more about the personal expression of established media and skills, often creative, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be a new creation, just that it needs to be a personal expression. This is how you can have five people show you the same kata, but it will be different for each of them (the level of artistry can be seen in the personal expressions). Adaptation can be part of it, but more often than not it just happens to be part of the overall expression of that person... and that adaptation is not necessarily artistically valid (or martially valid, for that matter), so just because adaptation happens does not put it above others who don't "adapt".
Eh, now it's my turn to disagree with you, lol.

Just because someone performs a kata a bit differently doesn't make it art. The principles and techniques in the kata are what's important. If you adapt it so much, those aren't transmitted, then the kata becomes worthless, 'cept maybe in awful forms competitions. But adapting it to fit, lets say your body size, that would be a good thing. But I would not consider that being art.

To use your music analogy, I played electric bass in bands for a number of years. We did some originals, but mostly covers. Some of the songs we played we changed around a bit to fit our style and strengths. Personally, I would not consider that art.

Of course, since what we are talking about is mostly subjective, this is just my own opinion. It just happens to be the right one :angel:.

Jeff
 
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