My own MA...

Chris Parker

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Sure, not sure that anything much else good is going to come of this thread....

I'm going to look at this from my arts perspective, as well as giving a few other examples from other arts to show the differences that can (and do) exist. Obviously the important thing is that each art is congruent and true to itself across board.

1: What is the primary power source your art uses?

Within Ninjutsu the power source utilised is natural body weight in fluid motion.

By contrast, karate tends towards generating power by snapping the hips in order to transfer power; a number of Kung Fu (CMA) systems generate power through tension in the tendons; boxing (and JKD, for that matter) use kinetic chaining; Aikido is redirection of incoming energy/momentum by utilising circular movement; Judo focuses of hip movement and displacing the opponents balance; BJJ works with a combination of leverage and positioning..... the list can go on and on, really.

2: What is the primary angle used?

Within Ninjutsu we utilise an asterix-style approach to angling (forwards, backwards, left and right, forward and to the left, forward and to the right, back and to the left, back and to the right), as well as (to a lesser degree) up and down.

Karate tends towards straight line (linear) angles, primarily forwards and backwards, with some sideways movement as well; boxing is also very linear; Aikido is circular, moving around the opponents incoming force; Wing Chun has little evasive angling, as it deals more with intercepting incoming attacks, and has a primary angle of forwards; military movement tends towards forward, and outflanking forwards, with some retreating to a lesser degree, and so on.

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?

Well, Ninjutsu is very much as generalist system, in that it deals with striking, kicking, grappling (stand-up), ground work, weapons, weapon defence, groups, and far more. That said, certain individual systems within the Ninjutsu schools are more one than another.

Good examples of grappling systems include BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, a number of traditional Jujutsu systems, and so on. Striking arts range from boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Karate, and so on.

Generalist systems are modern RBSD systems, MMA, Shootfighting, JKD, and so on.

An important thing to note here is that just because a system is a specialist system (say, striking with TKD), that doesn't mean that's all it has, just that that specialisation makes up the dominant majority of the system.

4: What is the environment your art is designed for?

For Ninjutsu, the majority of the old systems are designed for old-style Japanese attacks (stepping punches, grappling/throwing attacks, traditional Japanese weaponry etc), although modern interpretations are not uncommon. With my schools, the two (environments) are definitively seperate.

MMA's environment is a competitive ring (honestly rather grappler-friendly), boxing is similar, but with a firmer surface allowing faster striking and movement, Judo's environment is a Judo competition, RBSD deals with common "street" attacks and the realities of adrenaline and the law, traditional Japanese weapon systems deal with either battlefield usage (Katori Shinto Ryu, Toda-ha Buko Ryu etc), or more of a dueling situation (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Shinto Muso Ryu etc), or possibly arresting or policing methods (Hojojutsu, Juttejutsu etc). Chinese systems can be classed as "Northern" or "Southern" systems, where the terrain in which they developed lend themselves to very different body mechanics (the Northern systems, being a flatter environment, tend towards more "upright", narrow stances, whereas the Southern systems, being a rockier, more mountainous area, have a greater tendancy to deeper, lower stances for stability).

5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?

Oh, we have lots! Sword, short sword, knife, two sword, staff, short staff, half staff, naginata, spear, bisento, jutte, kusari fundo, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, hojo, chigiriki, shuriken, fukiya, shikomi zue, shuko, and more. Modern interpretations include firearms and defence as well, including defence against modern weapons such as machettes, baseball bats, chains, and so on.

It's really going to be far too long to try to go through all the other possibile weapon usages and systems that use them, but for some brevity, there is none in most competition based systems (Judo, boxing, MMA, etc), or specific weapons only (Kendo, Atarashii Naginatado, La Canne), some systems are weapons based (Katori Shinto Ryu, Toda-ha Buko Ryu, Escrima, Jodo etc), some are unarmed based with some weapons (Wing Chun - Butterfly swords and staff, some Karate systems - nunchaku, kama, tonfa, staff, sai, and so on).

6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?

Ah, the confusing one. For Ninjutsu, when you look at the scrolls, each system have their own rhythm, but to generalise, Ninjutsu-related traditions tend towards rhythms of 2 or 3 (two as an attacking rhythm [one as a set-up, the second as a knockdown/out], or three as a defensive rhythm [one as a block, two as a disrupting action, and a third to finish]). That is then combined with alternating angles/heights (hitting left, then right, or high then low, or reversed).

Arts such as boxing work on a variety of rhythms, typically trained as combination, and can range from two or three punches, to as many as 8 or more in a row. Karate systems can have a rhythm of one (one punch, one kill to oversimplify things....), with the idea that each action you take is completely self-dependant, and is designed to be as devestating as possible. Aikido works on rhythms of three or more, with the first action taking control of the opponents energy, the second redirecting it, and the third the application of the movement.

7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?

For us, the most fundamental posture is a defensive posture (Ichimonji, Seigan, Doko etc depending upon system). It features your weight being centred back, rather than forward, has one hand extended as a barrier/defence, and the rear hand guarding while being ready to strike/launch an attack. The primary strategy for our arts is escape and survival, so the posture reflects that.

In boxing, the main posture is forward, with the hands held high guarding the head, and the body held upright. The feet both point forwards and are close together for speed of movement. As the primary strategy for boxing is based around generating success in boxing matches, the posture is guarded, but aggressive, focused on forwards movement, and the hands held to protect the head, as that is the primary target in boxing.

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?

Okay, first off, a clarification of what a strategy is, and what a tactic is.

A strategy is an overall plan of action. Examples might be "win a competition", or "get home safe". A tactic is a particular set of methods used to achieve that strategy, such as "push forward aggressively" to win a competition, or "evasive angles" for get home safe. The next thing is "technique", which, in the above examples, would be the specific footwork.

For us, the primary strategy changes depending on the environment. For the traditional, the strategy is to defeat the enemy (for the most part, Togakure Ryu is a bit different, for example). The tactics used for that strategy include evasive angling, damaging counter strikes, and devestating throws (designed to injure, and not allow the opponent/enemy to fall safely), as well as the use of weaponry. Our street strategy is simply, as listed above, "get home safe". The primary tactics are designed to minimalise the risk of injury to yourself, as well as to escape (or eject yourself from the situation) as quickly as possible. They include awareness to avoid confrontation before it happens, verbal de-escalation to stop a confrontation becoming physical, pre-emptive striking to avoid the risk of the attacker injuring you, and from there we get into close-quarter brawling, ground work, and so on.

Hope that helps a bit!
 
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fenglong

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Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.

"Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."
 

Xue Sheng

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If the wind will not serve, take to the oars

Chikin%20Nu%20Eku.JPG
 

Aiki Lee

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Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.

"Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."

I think you might be heading in the right direction, but this still sounds kind of vague and philosophical. Can you explain how you do this, physically?

thank you Chris for your explanations. If you combined what you have said about both ninjutsu and aikido, that's pretty much what we do. I feel I may have gotten this thread off subject but I'd like to answer the questions posted by Chris in regards to aikininjutsu as a further example.


1. Primary power source

We practice taijutsu and so like traditional ninjutsu practitioners, we use the whole body weight in fluid motion with special emphasis on moving from the hips as opposed to the legs or shoulders (unless such movement is key to a particular tactic)

2. Primary angle

We use much of the same angling that Chris mention from traditional ninjutsu, afterall quite a lot of our material comes from those traditions, but we use a lot of circular movements as well. In fact we combine the approaches and often start off in the angular ninjutsu movements and switch to a circular one to finish the technique or vice visera

1: What is the primary power source your art uses?
3. How is your art classified (striking, grappling, ect)?

Generalist. There is equal emphasis on striking and throwing, as we believe you should always strike to set up your throw or takedown. We have traditional Japanese weapons as well as modern weapons.
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?

4. What is the environment of the art designed for?

Modern reality based personal protection for private citizens and law enforcement. Skills are aquired from traditional Japanese martial arts as well as some modern military and police training. All training is oriented towards modern self defense as.
4: What is the environment your art is designed for?

5. What weapons are used if any?

Traditional Japanese weapons and modern firearms and knives. Improvised weapons based on simularities to traditional weapons (ex. using a pool cue as a rokushakubo, or pen as a kubotan) are practiced.
5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?

6. What are the primary rythms?

Here's my best attempt at this. Aside from what is traditionally taught as described by Chris, the main breakdown of what we do can be summed up as move, hit, turn. It sounds like maybe its a 3 step thing but its really more of 2 steps.

You either:
1: Move, hit and turn
or
2: Move and hit, and turn
6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
I hope that makes the slightest bit of sense to anyone.

7. What are the main postures of your art?

Mostly our version of bobi no kame which looks almost like the pik-a-boo style of boxing, however this is very basic and an a forward energy oriented posture with both feet pointing forward on and being on the balls of you feet are important. Hand position varies depending on what we want to bait the opponent with.

We tend also to use a lot of modified ichimonji no kame with a more even weight distribution on the feet and do a lot of work from other popular postures ninjutsu.
7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?

8. What kind of tactic and strategy are used?

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
Here is a list of some of our tactics and where we learn them from as well as some of our skill sets we call the "secrets".

aiki kihon happo

1. ikyo-enter
2. nikyo-set up
3. sankyo-go around the problem
4. yonkyo-be indifferent to pain
5. gokyo-strike in every technique
6. rokyo- lead the opponent (basically keep them infront of you)
7. nankyo-be skin tight
8. Hachikyo-become the center of the technique

ninpo kihon happo

1. Ichimonji no kata-remain neutral in movement, strike to direction of balance
2. Jumonji no kata- twist you hips
3. hicho no kata- expand and contract, maintain physical contact
4. omote gyaku dori- take what is given
5. omote gyaku tsuki- the opponent does not stop attacking
6. ura gyaku- build in a defense
7. musha dori- use your legs
8. ganseki nage- fit in (tsukuri)

our first four "secrets" are

1. strike and throw to direction of unbalance
2. draw in the attack by manipulating instinct to track
3. isshin, mushin, zanshin
4. line up off center of opponent

I could go on and on and on, but i will spare you more of my ramblings.
 

shesulsa

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Fenglong, I've gone back and read this thread really thoroughly and nothing really jumps out at me as to why it would be worthwhile for you to start your own style other than an ownership thing.

One thing you typed that I think is *very* poignant is where you said something like you have the right to keep your creations within your own style.

I'd like to point out that while it's great you've spent over a decade of your life training and learning and contemplating that you haven't really put anything new out there for consideration yet. I tend to agree with others - fighting arts have been around for SO VERY LONG and there is extensive theory behind some of the older arts and available to those who are interested in science and theory behind movement, counter-movement, fight philosophy, etcetera.

Would you be willing to post a sample video of your style creation? It might be better to serve as an example than what we've read so far.

Thank you.
 
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fenglong

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Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.

"Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."


This is related to one of the core concepts of my MA.
It is similar to the water concept in Taijiquan or which Bruce Lee mentioned.

Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.

While the wind part focuses on smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance, no matter how exhausing, rough or painful, the lightning part focuses on maximized speed and strength equally.
The philosophy is "you can't beat what you can't see".

The idea behind the lightning method is basically to generate as much acceleration as possible in a time frame as small as possible.

Whereas the regular training would change my speed from extremely fast at the beginning, to average speed a few weeks/months later in trade for higher strength, my lightning methods constantly increase speed and strength.
I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.
 
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fenglong

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I think you might be heading in the right direction, but this still sounds kind of vague and philosophical. Can you explain how you do this, physically?

...

So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.
Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^

Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. Walking your way means enduring and persisting.
 

elder999

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Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.

Tonicity is a measure of the osmotic pressure (as defined by the water potential of the two solutions) of two solutions separated by a semipermeable membrane.

I now invoke the pancake bunny.

.
I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.

Uhhrr.....I know one possible reason "why it works.."

'cause you've only used it against 11th grade LARPERS like yourself. :lfao:
 
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elder999

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clfsean

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Video... provide video.

Static websites of "former training partners" in static postures prove nothing to support your claims.

:BSmeter:
 
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fenglong

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Video... provide video.

Static websites of "former training partners" in static postures prove nothing to support your claims.

:BSmeter:


Yeam I'm sorry. Everyone waiting for a video will have to show a little more patience.
Apologies.
 

shesulsa

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Well, then ... given your limp postulation here and lack of video paired with the accusatory private message conversation with you, I refuse to engage in this exchange with you further until you provide some video.

Either one of two things is going on here:

1. You are honestly wanting to create your own martial art and are innocently devoted to the idea, though you clearly have no idea what you're doing,

or

2. You are a troll and totally not worth the effort put forth here.

I know where my money lies, but in giving you the benefit of the doubt ... I await video.

Adios!
 

Indie12

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Well, then ... given your limp postulation here and lack of video paired with the accusatory private message conversation with you, I refuse to engage in this exchange with you further until you provide some video.

Either one of two things is going on here:

1. You are honestly wanting to create your own martial art and are innocently devoted to the idea, though you clearly have no idea what you're doing,

or

2. You are a troll and totally not worth the effort put forth here.

I know where my money lies, but in giving you the benefit of the doubt ... I await video.

Adios!

I'll go out a limb based from what I've heard talking with him and say #1. He's honestly wanting to create his own system, but has no idea what he is doing. Though I too will give him the benefit of the doubt... What video btw?

I personally would want to see him demonstrate portions of his system up close and personal, besides taping a video which could be tampered with, misrepresented, or falseified... That way questioning someone face to face works better then online...

In response to the Administrators statement concerning 'Creating new Martial Art systems' if you take a look back at many of the Martial Arts systems from 1960-present, they all had influence from other Arts, which would make them "non-original" Arts.
 

Indie12

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Folks,

Before this thread gets any further out of hand, let me address a few things.

1) The discussion of 'creating your own art' have been discussed endlessly on here. 9 times out of 10, people aren't creating anything new, just repackaging stuff from other arts. Why anyone would want to craft their 'own' art when there are many others already in existance, is beyond me.

12: Debateable...

2) Please take a few minutes to read thru the forum rules that everyone agreed to upon joining, specifically the part on trolling.

12: I've noticed that alot in many forums... Why isn't more action taken?

3) If people are here to have a serious discussion, fine. If people are here to stir the pot and do nothing but troll, you'll find your time here will be cut very short.

12: Typical of many, many forums...

4) If you're having an issue with a member, their post, etc., dont fire back at the person, use the RTM feature, which is the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post. It'll generate a report for the forum mods to look at and deal with, if any action is deemed necessary.

12: Well would you be so kind as to describe what requirements are needed for action to be deemed necessary?
It's not quite clear on what merits a "deemed necessary" action/response.

That being said, lets keep the thread civil please.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

Thanks! :)
 
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