My Opinion on Combat Sports

[Freestyler777]

They don't work, are boring, and are generally useless.

In my opinion, Traditional Ju-jutsu(aka JJJ) is self defense. Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion. Some of you may hate me for saying that, while others will say 'you didn't know already?', but it just dawned on me. Boxing, or Pugilism, is the only 'sport' that helps for self-defense, and even boxing is somewhat limited by the rules and gloves.

So, if you are an athletic guy who likes contact, boxing seems to be best.

And if you want your children to know self-defense, enroll them in a traditional jiu-jitsu school near home.

I've spent way too much time playing judo, thinking it was self-defense. What a dork I was!

 

[tellner]

There's only one problem with your theory. It's wrong.

You see, we have the benefit of using facts instead of guessing. The best hypothesis falls before a single inconvenient fact. In this case, we have decades of data. We know that Thai boxers, wrestlers, Judo players and boxers do very well in fights, thank you very much.

So thanks for playing. Be sure to take a copy of our Home Game on the way out.

 

[theletch1]

Anything that gives you the opportunity to pit yourself in a physical conflict against another human being who is trying just as hard as you are to win the day has SD value. While training with a pre-set group of rules may add an element of danger to you when called upon in a true life or death situation you will at least have had the opportunity to know what it is like to deal with an aggressor. To say that one "sport" has more merit for self defense than another is not only ignorant (look the word up if you need to, I'm not insulting you) it is dangerous if you decide to take a thai boxer, judo-ka etc lightly in a self defense situation.

 

[Tames D]

They don't work, are boring, and are generally useless.

In my opinion, Traditional Ju-jutsu(aka JJJ) is self defense. Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion. Some of you may hate me for saying that, while others will say 'you didn't know already?', but it just dawned on me. Boxing, or Pugilism, is the only 'sport' that helps for self-defense, and even boxing is somewhat limited by the rules and gloves.

So, if you are an athletic guy who likes contact, boxing seems to be best.

And if you want your children to know self-defense, enroll them in a traditional jiu-jitsu school near home.

I've spent way too much time playing judo, thinking it was self-defense. What a dork I was!

I take it you have never been in a real fight with a wrestler or a Muay Thai fighter.

 

[Andrew Green]

I have deduced that there are 3 disciplines: kickboxing, Ground n Pound, and submission. All 3 are effective. And anyway, all the MMA guys are multi-talented, so there really is no more style. It's just about kick punch throw submit.

You seem to go back and forth on most things, yet always seem to phrase your posts in a way that seems geared to annoy someone.

Maybe one day you will actually give us your real opinion...

 

[Freestyler777]

OK, admittingly, I was a bit rash.

However, in my limited opinion, punching is what most people do in 'streetfights' and, on the other hand, traditional japanese ju-jutsu has been proven effective by the military and police. Practically every japanese martial art is a derivative of ancient ju-jutsu.

And obviously, a muay thai kickboxer or a wrestler would be dangerous in SD, because the conditioning and competitiveness of any combat sport would help. But I am sure they would punch me in the face, not do a half-nelson into a side-pin, or leg kick me until I fell down. They would prove me right as they beat me into a bloody pulp.

Punching is the main 'modality' of combat, in my limited knowledge, and JJJ is not a sport that focuses on competition, but rather on staying alive in dangerous conditions.

Sparring, or randori, or rolling, is quite useful in that it makes you conditioned, competitive, calm under pressure, and mentally tough, but don't confuse sportfighting with actual combat. The techniques of combat, as far as I know, are a rather small body of knowledge, basically, punching, foul tactics, weapons, etc...

And let's make it clear that I am not talking about myself in any way, shape, or form. I am not strong or a streetfighter, and my opinion is objective and purely theoretical. Thank you.

 

[jks9199]

They don't work, are boring, and are generally useless.

In my opinion, Traditional Ju-jutsu(aka JJJ) is self defense. Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion. Some of you may hate me for saying that, while others will say 'you didn't know already?', but it just dawned on me. Boxing, or Pugilism, is the only 'sport' that helps for self-defense, and even boxing is somewhat limited by the rules and gloves.

So, if you are an athletic guy who likes contact, boxing seems to be best.

And if you want your children to know self-defense, enroll them in a traditional jiu-jitsu school near home.

I've spent way too much time playing judo, thinking it was self-defense. What a dork I was!

H'mmm...

Combat sports don't work?

Damn. I would swear that I've seen two guys get into a boxing ring, and fight. I know I've seen two wrestlers grapple until one is pinned. I know I've seen guys get into an octagon, and they successfully fought each other, until one was beaten.

But they don't work, huh?

Lots of folks have made lots of money at them, too. But you say they don't work, out of your vast expertise.

I've got a colleague who's been very successful with judo in many street confrontations. But, I'll be sure to tell him that he must be wrong, because it doesn't work. Another of my partners was a highly rated wrestler, and has used wrestling moves on the street. Or so we thought... I've used my own martial arts in various ways on the street... or at least I thought I had. I guess not, since they don't work.

Dude, you keep coming up with the crap, then you back pedal and eat your words, and decide that maybe your opinion wasn't really based on that much knowledge. Can we skip straight to that?

 

[Freestyler777]

I need to find someone to speak:soapbox: these strange theories to, and save my fellow martialtalk poster's collective sanity.

I still think punching is the main thing and JJJ is the best self-defense.

 

[jks9199]

OK, admittingly, I was a bit rash.

Gee, thanks. I think this is record timing.

However, in my limited opinion, punching is what most people do in 'streetfights' and, on the other hand, traditional japanese ju-jutsu has been proven effective by the military and police. Practically every japanese martial art is a derivative of ancient ju-jutsu.

And your limited opinion is based on what? 'Cause your opinion on the derivation of Japanese and Okinawan martial arts is way off base... (Among other things, I doubt that the sword is a derivation of jujitsu... Oh, let me guess... You phrased that a little to quick, and meant that Japanese unarmed martial arts all derive from jujitsu. Still wrong...)

And obviously, a muay thai kickboxer or a wrestler would be dangerous in SD, because the conditioning and competitiveness of any combat sport would help. But I am sure they would punch me in the face, not do a half-nelson into a side-pin, or leg kick me until I fell down. They would prove me right as they beat me into a bloody pulp.

Punching is the main 'modality' of combat, in my limited knowledge, and JJJ is not a sport that focuses on competition, but rather on staying alive in dangerous conditions.

Sparring, or randori, or rolling, is quite useful in that it makes you conditioned, competitive, calm under pressure, and mentally tough, but don't confuse sportfighting with actual combat. The techniques of combat, as far as I know, are a rather small body of knowledge, basically, punching, foul tactics, weapons, etc...

And let's make it clear that I am not talking about myself in any way, shape, or form. I am not strong or a streetfighter, and my opinion is objective and purely theoretical. Thank you.

You've got one point that's accurate. Sparring, sport combat, and anything else other than actual streetfighting is not the same as a street fight. Nothing is the same as combat except combat.

With that out of the way... The various combat sports and martial arts all have different strengths as preparation and training for "real" fighting. You're spouting an opinion without supporting it at all. What do you base your opinion on what happens in a "real" fight on? My experience says that most fights do end up on the ground -- but that's because my job is to restrain and control the person, effecting an arrest. Funny thing... of the fights that I've responded to, some have ended in some sort of grappling, others have stayed punching and striking. Some even have included kicks!

Now, I'll also grant that many "combat athletes" don't train in ways geared to prepare them for the street. But that doesn't mean that their activity is unsuited to the street. A classical pianist doesn't practice jazz improv... but I bet that they probably could jam pretty well if they wanted or had to.

 

[theletch1]

[playnice]Jeff Letchford[/playnice]

 

[morph4me]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that combat sports or martial arts = self defense. What combat sports or martial arts do is give you a set of tools that can be used as needed and appropriate in a self defense situation. I was defending myself long before I learned martial arts, I became more effective when I learned them.

 

[exile]

Virtually all of my violent street defense encounters took place well before I started studying the MAs. So what I have to say has some street background, but not directly in connection with MAs. It seems to me, though, that a martial sport will be street-useful in proportion to how closely the sanctioning rules correspond to the facts about violent encounters initiated by untrained but dangerous assailants.

Take boxing. Its a sport, yes, but its crucial assumption is that the participants are gong to be attacking and counterattacking in very , very close range, and boxing trains people for both striking and evading strikes at that range, and moving so that strikes delivered at that range are going to miss, or at least be deflected so they're ineffective. Wrestling and judo are probably relatively street-adaptable because they also assume close-quarters combat—very close quarters—and train you to confront it and understand how to be effective and comfortable working at that range.

Compare this with Olympic tournament TKD. I do believe that TKD can be a ferociously effective realistic survival combat art, but not as practiced under WTF assumptions about scoring. The WTF rule system does not encourage fighters to engage in combat that corresponds to realistic fighting ranges. So the WTF tournament version, whatever its other virtues might be as a martial sport, do not have the advantage of training realism that boxing and judo do.

Again: TKD can be a devestating weapon of practical CQ self-defense: the experience of the RoK military in two horrific wars proved this on the bloodiest ground of all. But as martial sports go, WTF Olympic `foot fencing' is probably a lot less useful to train if you're interested in street defense than boxing is, for the reasons I've alluded to above. If you want the maximum practical value from your martial sport, make sure the scoring rules are reasonably realistic and practical...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Freestyler777, unfortunately nothing in life is ever so black and white. Some combat sport practitioners can and have been extremely effective in self defense situations while others have not. Likewise some reality based self defense people will fail in the moment of truth while others will not. It is just not that simple and in the end it does come down to the individual.

 

[meth18au]

They don't work, are boring, and are generally useless.

...Some of you may hate me for saying that, while others will say 'you didn't know already?', but it just dawned on me...

They work, I personally don't find them boring (nor do many others on this Earth) and they aren't useless. I don't take offense to your opinion, however I do have a question though: when and how did this big 'dawning' occur?

...Muay Thai...are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion...

As a Muay Thai practitioner I know a little about the history of Muay Thai. Do you??? Also if these 'sports' generally do not merit discussion, why would you choose to bring them up as a focal point of discussion??? For clarification, please refer to the title of this thread "My Opinion on Combat Sports".

And obviously, a muay thai kickboxer.... But I am sure they would punch me in the face, not do ... leg kick me until I fell down. They would prove me right as they beat me into a bloody pulp.

Obviously you have never fought a Thai boxer (note: not a Muay Thai kickboxer). Now I train Muay Thai, and my response to an aggressor would totally depend on the situation and how it panned out. But I guarantee you lots of legs would fly, as would knees and elbows- as they have in the past. Not that I wouldn't use my fists, or my teeth, or my head, or even a glass bottle I found on the floor!!! It would totally depend on the threat level and the situation I was in. I find it extremely funny that you suggest a Muay Thai fighter would only punch you in the face and beat you into a pulp, and that this would hence prove your theory?!?! Please do explain how you came to this conclusion?

I still think punching is the main thing and JJJ is the best self-defense.

And you are entitled to your opinion Sir, as we all are. However I still fail to see the actual 'point' of this post? Could you clarify, or possibly provide some evidence/facts to allow this thread to continue in an educated manner? I look forward to your clarification of the questions that I have presented to you. Enjoy your day.

 

[Freestyler777]

OK, let me clarify my view:

First of all, I am not saying that combat athletes don't know SD. On the contrary, they are often the strongest, most rugged people on earth!

What I am saying is, if all you do is randori, or sparring, you begin to assume that partner practice of more dangerous techniques, is worthless, and you just train for sport.

If all you do is kata, or partner practice and never spar or roll or randori, your techniques become artificial and theoretical, kind of like my arguements. Sportfighting is essential for SD efficacy, but it shouldnt be confused with the actual thing.

I think Morph is the most similar to my views out all of the posts so far. Without sparring, there is no self-defense, but sparring does not = self defense, it's just a training method.

And granted, there are more techniques than just punching, but punching is still the main thing. That said, thai fighters, wrestlers, and judoka all know how to throw a punch, so perhaps they should do their own sport and divide practice into sparring (randori) and self-defense forms (kata).

So we are back to balance. You need both sparring and partner practice to maximize your potential. Just don't confuse the combat sport with actual gruesome combat.

 

[exile]

What I am saying is, if all you do is randori, or sparring, you begin to assume that partner practice of more dangerous techniques, is worthless, and you just train for sport.

If all you do is kata, or partner practice and never spar or roll or randori, your techniques become artificial and theoretical, kind of like my arguements. Sportfighting is essential for SD efficacy, but it shouldnt be confused with the actual thing.

Here's a distinction that may be of use: Iain Abernethy distinguishes between what he calls sport-based sparring, kumite of the familiar kind, on the one hand, and what he calls kata-based sparring, which is all-in, CQ simulation of street attacks, on the other. Once you've don bunkai for the kata, you have to train the apps you've discovered, and those apps are very unpleasant, not the kind of thing you want to be uke for. So a certain amount of padding is necessary (not full padding with thick gloves, but some essential padding), and you have to face the possibility of nontrivial injuries. As Abernethy says in his Black Belt article on this realistic kata-based combat training from this past April issue, `There are obvious safety issues surrounding kata-based sparring, especially the more extreme variety. I've bled, broken bones and dislocated joints through my own adventures, so I fully appreciate that heavy contact isn't for everyone.' (p.103). This kind of training, which is a standyby not just in IA's dojo but in the British Combat Association crowd generally, has almost nothing to do with sport sparring. So if you're seriously committed to competitive karate, whether of the Japanese or Korean flavors, the more you do this kind of stuff, the less likely you are to train in the hard, street-combat format that guys like IA advocate for SD training. Yes, that makes sense.

But again, sport training can probably be adapted, to varying degrees, if you do decide you want to start doing SD-specific training. Take competition TKD. It instills some baaaaaaad habits, especially involving the hands. But what it does give you, or should, are great balance skills for high kicks, Now I don't think high kicks are practical for the great majority of street situations, for the reasons that Geoff Thompson gives in his very practical, rational assessment of the way MAs can be applied to street SD, The Pavement Arena. But terrific high-kicking balance skills in the very artificial tournament environment, under the very artificial WTF sparring rules, can translate into terrific low-kicking balance skills targeting high value targets on the lower body, and speedy shift to move in on an attacker whose initial attack you've pre-empted and countered hard—if you know how to do that. So I think that sport techniques mustn't ever be confused with SD techs, but sport training, if you make up your mind to apply it to realistic CQ applications, can probably give you a serious edge.

I think the mistake people make is in assuming their sport skills will translate automatically to unrestricted violent-conflict skills. That's the big mistake, but one that I think fewer people might be making these days than a few years ago, due to the work of people like Abernethy and the other combat-oriented karate people like the BCA, and the attention that a lot of the MA mags seem to be giving to the difference between competition and survival fighting....

 

[Freestyler777]

Thank you exile:ultracool

 

[exile]

You're more than welcome, Freestyler. I think I had a sense of what you were getting at, and it's a point that I actually think that a lot of the posters on the thread agree with in general. As Brian says, it's not all black and white—the sport side can feed the combat side, and individual talent does come into it. But the key thing, I suspect, is keeping the two angles on sparring straight in your mind and being very aware of where one ends and the other begins.

I also suspect that a lot of the emphasis on combat sports for their own sake arises because the other kind of sparring is potentially a legal nightmare for school owners. One of the reasons the realistic CQ combat sparring styles may be much more commonly practiced in the UK is that it's a less litigious kind of culture over there, from what my British friends tell me. Over here, even if you require students to sign all kinds of waivers, there's still a chance that you may wind up in court over a bad bruise. It does tend to put a bit of a damper on any inpulse you might have to get your students to do serious combat training, I'd think....

 

[Freestyler777]

Litigation seems to be a hobby unto itself in America.

But I am glad that there are likeminded individuals on this forum, who also believe that sparring and partner practice, and the kind of combat simulation that you are talking about go together.

 

[Guardian]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that combat sports or martial arts = self defense. What combat sports or martial arts do is give you a set of tools that can be used as needed and appropriate in a self defense situation. I was defending myself long before I learned martial arts, I became more effective when I learned them.

This said it all for me. It's up to the person to use what he/she is taught, sport or self-defense aspects are only tools as stated, the person has to use them and it's in the mind set and actual experiences that show whether they work or don't.