My Dojo Is Becoming Infected

[Carol]

Yoroshiku-san, I don't think anyone was offended by the question, or by you.
Personally I am honored when someone I know shares a bit of their spirituality with me. Spirituality is very intimate and if someone I know is sharing that part of their life with me, that means they have some trust in me as well. That means a lot.

Unfortunately in the United States there are also some folks that will approach an individual and seem friendly, but the friendship is kind of a disguise. The person doesn't make that much of an attempt to get to know you, or to earn your friendship, the focus is more on recruiting people to a church or a path of faith. To be on the receiving end of this sort of evangelizing is not a very good feeling...it is as if the person trying to convert you doesn't really care about you, and doesn't really have an interest in your friendship...it is like they are only trying for another "point" for their spiritual scorecard.

This saddens me...even though I don't really identify myself as being a part of one particular faith community, I know I have grown spiritually from being really explore my spirituality with trusted friends. It seems like the more heavy-handed people that are out there, there are less quiet people willing to bring up the subject of faith in a private conversation.

 

[MJS]

Wow, this thread jumped a few pages since I last posted. I still stand by my original thoughts. Something else to consider. We go to certain places because we expect certain things. We go to a restaurant not to watch a movie, but to eat. I bring my car to the dealership not so I can grab a bite to eat, but to have it serviced. I go to the dojo to train in the martial arts and for self defense, not to learn about religion. If I want to learn about religion, I have a place for that and its called a church. You have everyone there who is of the same faith. Depending on what religion you practice, you attend the proper church.

That being said, IMHO, I don't feel that religion should be brought into the dojo, seeing that you have a wide variety of people attending. Like I said, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want, and I respect that. What I don't like, is when something is pushed on me.

To me, this would boarder on being a cultish school. In essance, you're forcing someone who trains at that school, to have to partake in whatever the inst. is preaching. Someone tells you that you have to wear a certain religious patch. Why? Why does someone have the right to force you to do something you don't want to do?

In the end its really simple...if you dont like whats going on at that school, leave. Unless the option is given that you don't have to wear the patch, etc., but otherwise, I feel that its wrong.

 

[Tez3]

So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question.
The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should.
Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention.
Yoroshiku

Not offended in the least, I just don't want particularly to discuss strangers beliefs with them! Talking about them with friends is fine but there's loads of things I wouldn't stand chatting about with people I don't know.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.

I'm always inclined to take a listen to what someone has to say, but once they say to me, "I know you say you're Christian, but you really aren't unless you're (insert name of denom)", then they lose my interest. I have little interest in those trying to divide and conquer an existing belief system. Once I tell them that I'm happy where I am, but thanks for sharing, it should end there. If they wish to start argueing the point with me, then they've gone beyond mere 'sharing' and have disrespected me.

Now, if they want to have a friendly chat without trying to make me change my denom from Christian flavor 1 to Christian flavor 2, 3, or 5, then fine. I'll even brew them a pot of coffee.

Incidentally, I have yet to have anyone of a non-christian bent come handing out literature or proselytizing door to door. I have quite a few friends who are not Christian who have shared their beliefs with me in a friendly dialogue fashion and I have greatly enjoyed the conversations. I'm always interested in learning about how others believe, even though (or perhaps because?) I am quite secure and happy in my own beliefs.

Daniel

 

[Uchinanchu]

I'm always inclined to take a listen to what someone has to say, but once they say to me, "I know you say you're Christian, but you really aren't unless you're (insert name of denom)", then they lose my interest. I have little interest in those trying to divide and conquer an existing belief system. Once I tell them that I'm happy where I am, but thanks for sharing, it should end there. If they wish to start argueing the point with me, then they've gone beyond mere 'sharing' and have disrespected me.

Now, if they want to have a friendly chat without trying to make me change my denom from Christian flavor 1 to Christian flavor 2, 3, or 5, then fine. I'll even brew them a pot of coffee.

Incidentally, I have yet to have anyone of a non-christian bent come handing out literature or proselytizing door to door. I have quite a few friends who are not Christian who have shared their beliefs with me in a friendly dialogue fashion and I have greatly enjoyed the conversations. I'm always interested in learning about how others believe, even though (or perhaps because?) I am quite secure and happy in my own beliefs.

Daniel

There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...

 

[chinto]

So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question.
The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should.
Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention.
Yoroshiku

i am not offended, and have had it happen. my reaction is when it is done politely as in " here is what i believe and think on religion" ( insert the flavor or type). when done that way, my reaction is often a dialog of this is what i believe, and as long as its a give and take and no animosity or what have you, it can be enjoyable. I do not think i am liable to change their mind if they believe differently then i do, and i know they are not going to change my mind. But the chance to learn what others think and how they see the world and the universe can be a very stimulating thing!

I still say that theology has no real place in the dojo though. at least not as part of the training there. the dojo is there to teach a system of combat, and not religon.

 

[Tez3]

There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...

Is it wrong to go door to door trying to hawk your religion? yes, frankly.
Why should they be so arrogant as to believe they have the right to invade others privacy because they have a religion they think everyone should share?
Missionaries have ruined many peoples lives, it's one thing to go to other countries wishing to help medically and educationally others less well off but to do this only at a price of the people being helped converting to missionaries religion is immoral.
The best way to convert people to your religion is to lead a good honest life that others might look at it and say 'well look what their religion does for them' and then join them. going out making nuisances of themselves is wrong.
If the intructor and the other 'believers' in the dojo had just done this, got on quietly with their faith, not brought it forcefully to the other students attention, they may well have actually attracted someone to join their faith. Instead they have alienated students by bringing religion forceably into a place that had been 'neutral' if you like and will lose students.

 

[Hagakure]

Is it wrong to go door to door trying to hawk your religion? yes, frankly.
Why should they be so arrogant as to believe they have the right to invade others privacy because they have a religion they think everyone should share?
Missionaries have ruined many peoples lives, it's one thing to go to other countries wishing to help medically and educationally others less well off but to do this only at a price of the people being helped converting to missionaries religion is immoral.
The best way to convert people to your religion is to lead a good honest life that others might look at it and say 'well look what their religion does for them' and then join them. going out making nuisances of themselves is wrong.
If the intructor and the other 'believers' in the dojo had just done this, got on quietly with their faith, not brought it forcefully to the other students attention, they may well have actually attracted someone to join their faith. Instead they have alienated students by bringing religion forceably into a place that had been 'neutral' if you like and will lose students.

Oh my word yes. It annoys the heck out of me. Why can't religious people accept that not everyone wants their wares? If I go through Wolverhampton town centre during lunch, I'm literally, daily, bombarded with arrogant sods insisting that I be saved, and that "I think I'm ok, but you're not". I had that yesterday, (is it wrong to use your MA to deck someone like this?) some guy actually coming up to me, telling me that I "wasn't fine", and that only "God and Jesus can save you". Who the bloody hell is he to tell me that? AAHAHAHAHHHH!!! The sheer, inutterable arrogance is mind-blowing. I happen to have my own spiritual beliefs, that I keep to myself. They're mine, and I don't expect or even want others to "be like me", wanna be Christian? Fine. Go be Christian, but for pitys sake, don't assume that EVERYONE else wants to be one too.

I also stand by my original post, if he insists that the class is going this way, it's up to you. I'd walk. As I also mentioned, my sifu is a devout Muslim, yet never once feels the need to bring that into his class. This really makes my blood boil.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
.

Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to Leave Now And Never Come Back.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...

No, I do not consider it wrong. I have had some folks come to my door with literature who were very friendly and very polite and very respectful. I've invited them in for coffee and kindly listened to what they had to say. It was very interesting to compare the differences between their brand of Christianity and my own.

If someone loves their faith so much and wishes to share it (key word is share, as opposed to push), I am happy to listen, provided that I am able to do so at the time.

I don't have a problem with anyone knocking doors. If you say missionaries can't, then neither can political campaign volunteers and door to door salesmen or home improvement guys trying to plug their business. Actually, we get far more of the home repair/improvement guys than any of the rest. Likewise, some are polite and others pushy.

Personally, I'd like to see some Shinto, Jewish, Buddhist, B'hai (sp?), Hindu or Muslim missionaries, just to mix it up and keep things interesting.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to Leave Now And Never Come Back.

Now, would you extend this to door to door salespeople or political campaigning? Or people trying to get signatures for petitions? Or the girls scouts?

I don't do missionary work, so don't get me wrong; I'm not offended by the statement. But once you start passing laws or modifying laws to keep one group from knocking doors, then you kind of have to extend that to make all door knocking illegal. Otherwise, it becomes discrimination.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I still say that theology has no real place in the dojo though. at least not as part of the training there. the dojo is there to teach a system of combat, and not religon.

My feeling is that a privately run dojo can teach whatever the owner wishes to. But, don't bring people into a non religious karate class and then change the rules.

I have no problem with someone running a religiously themed dojo, but that needs to be up front. In essense, be honest about what you are.

If a sensei wishes to add the religious element to what has been a non-religious dojo, as is the case with the OP, he or she should offer a separate class for those who are interested. More importantly, in the non religious classes, keep the religion out of it.

As for the patch? It's his school and he can make the marque in any fashion he wishes.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

Now, would you extend this to door to door salespeople or political campaigning? Or people trying to get signatures for petitions? Or the girls scouts?

I don't do missionary work, so don't get me wrong; I'm not offended by the statement. But once you start passing laws or modifying laws to keep one group from knocking doors, then you kind of have to extend that to make all door knocking illegal. Otherwise, it becomes discrimination.

Daniel

I wouldn't necessarily make it illegal but iIdon't want sales people or campaigners at my door either. We don't get scouts/guides coming to the door as its the policy of the Guide Association and the Scout Association not to allow members to go doorstepping for any reason.
Though thinking about it I don't see why it couldn't be made illegal to doorstep!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Making door knocking illegal wouldn't bother me, provided that it wasn't targeted to one specific group. I'm kind of whole hog or no hog on that sort of thing.

Personally door knocking doesn't bother me, but I can see where it would bother others.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

I'm not so bothered about why they knock I just wish they wouldn't as I'm a shift worker and need to sleep during the day!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That I can definitely understand.

I'm personally alright with them so long as they don't get pushy. Personally, I'd rather the door knockers than the darned telemarketers.

Daniel

 

[The Last Legionary]

Invite them over for a baby bbq, ask them to bring a baby. It's all good.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Invite them over for a baby bbq, ask them to bring a baby. It's all good.

Get in mah belly! Baby... the other, other white meat!

Daniel

 

[JadeDragon3]

Talk to your teacher. Tell him why you don't think you should have to wear this patch. I'm a Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact and I would have a fit if someone made me wear a patch of any type that relates to religion (that includes Catholicism). I'm just not one for forcing your religious beliefs down someone's throat. If I had to wear the patch I would leave and go elsewhere.

 

[Kreth]

I'm just not one for forcing your religious beliefs down someone's throat.

Really? Your vehement homophobic ranting a while back would seem to indicate otherwise... Just sayin'... :idunno: