My Dojo Is Becoming Infected

[Daniel Sullivan]

By the Christian virus.
Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.

On the subject of the patch alone, Shinobi, so what?

Realistically, if he wants to use an 'Army of God' kanji as his school symbol, that is his right to do. If that is the school's symbol as of last month, then that is the school's symbol.

There are kanji and symbols in plenty of MA patches that have religious symbolism and the students of those schools are required to either wear the uniform or go elsewhere. They don't ask you to convert, but it is the symbol that the school owner or style has adopted.

Generally, a patch will be symbolic of the culture and philosophy of the style's founder. Like it or not, Christianity is a part of American culture. Nobody raises an eyebrow at Buddhist symbols or referrences in eastern martial arts because we just accept that it is part of the culture. Heck, if the teacher is a genuine Shaolin monk, that is generally looked upon as a plus!

So you have a school that was founded by a minister. While it may not be directly attached to his church, his philosopy will be infused in his teaching. That is his background and where he comes from. A school's philosophy will be to some extent an extension of the owner's.

Out of curiousity, what MA is he teaching? If you've stated this earlier in the thread, my apologies.

Daniel

 

[Josh Oakley]

?? How do you make that out, Josh? Chinto is the name of a kata created by Bushi Matsumura, taken from the name of the Chinese sailor whose fighting style Matsumura was impressed by and whose technical content he recorded by means of that kata. It has no connection with 'Shinto'/Shintoism whatsoever.

And on another note: whether or not people use MAs as vehicles for their religion, the fact is that this school was presented to the OPer as a MA school at the beginning, not as a ministry. Had it been presented as a ministry, it's likely that the OPer would have gone elsewhere. What's been sprung on him is that the school is now to be a ministry—that's fairly evident, I think, to the people there—putting the OPer in the position of either having to discontinue his training there or to adopt behaviors which go against his conscience. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether MAs can incorporate religious ideals or not; what it has to do with is the fact that the OPer's instructor is unilaterally changing the rules of the game in the middle.

Actually I didn't know that about the word chinto. Thanks! However, I'm not in disagreement. I originally posted to analyze the motives of the instructor in question. My guess was it wasn't originally presented as a ministry because it wasn't a ministry.

But like I said, the issue sucks all around. For the instructor, my bet is he'd have to go against his conscience to continue business as usual. And obviously for the students who are not of like mind to the instructor, they will have to go against their conscience to continue training with him. Unfortunately, in situations like this, nobody's going to get everything they want.

I think a fair compromise would be for the instructor to actively find new homes for those who are against the change, such as Shinobi.
But I was entirely clear as to the issue, as should be clear from my first post.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Well, then why did you call your dojo a McDojo? That is actually more disrespectful than the rest of it because calling a martial arts school a McDojo on the internet has serious implications. McDojo is a pejorative and it implies inferior or worse training, price gouging, and five year old black belts.

If your dojo does not fall into this category, then calling it a McDojo on the internet incredibly disrespectful.

What are you talking about? He never called it a McDojo. Ever. Where are you getting this?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Good post Josh!

Personally, I think that the best compromise would be for him to be open about what his philosphy is and where he draws it from. He should keep his classes focused on teaching whatever martial art it is that he teaches. If his katas are drawn from Biblical inspiration, then he needs say nothing more than, 'this kata represents Israel's triumph at the battle of Jericho. Use lots of power as if you're smashing through a stone wall.'

If he wants to put up a big Amercan flag and a big flag with a cross to represent the 'flag of Heaven', then great. Bow in respect of the flags that the school honors. I bow to an American flag and a Korean flag. Doesn't mean I'm thinking about becoming a Korean national.

For students who are interested in a greater depth of knowledge regarding the Biblical inspirations for the kata, they can talk to him one on one about it after class.

But the class itself should be focused on teaching techniques, not on teaching theology. Those not comfortable with any religiously significant items in their dojo or dojang need to research their style and school symbols. There may not be Christian symbolism, but there may be plenty of religiously oriented symbols that relate to perhaps Buddhism, Shinto, or any one of a number of eastern religions, depending upon the style's country of origin.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What are you talking about? He never called it a McDojo. Ever. Where are you getting this?

I just edited my response. You are correct.

I misread an earlier post.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, then why did you call your dojo a McDojo? That is actually more disrespectful than the rest of it because calling a martial arts school a McDojo on the internet has serious implications. McDojo is a pejorative and it implies inferior or worse training, price gouging, and five year old black belts.

If your dojo does not fall into this category, then calling it a McDojo on the internet incredibly disrespectful.

Thanks Josh for pointing this out. To Shinobi, my apologies. I misread.

Daniel

 

[chinto]

See, what you're saying does not bear the weight of history. The hindu warrior class would disagree with you as would the Shaolin monks and the Knights Templar (or even the Rosicurians). The Yamabushi of Japan would have disagreed as well.

This is the problem with this discussion. People HAVE used MA as a vehicle for religion and quite effectively. There's a Christian Kempo group that does this as well, and there's also the CMAA (Christian Martial Artists Association). Tai Chi Chuan and other martial arts are expressions of Taoism

But there are also people for whom MA didn't have any religious undertones or even spiritual ones. The issue is not cut and dry. Your martial arts are not about religion. Other martial arts are the very expression thereof.

Heck, Hatsuumi just got his organization recognized as a bonafide religion.



I should warn you that you're falling prey to the fallacy of egocentrism. You have a particular take on the purpose of Martial Arts, and assume that that is true universally. Other people, historically, and even now, share a very different view. Who is right? That depends on perception.

As a side note, even your handle is a play on the word shinto, a polytheistic and animistic religion.

No my screen name is NOT a play on shinto!! it is the name of a chinese sailor who was shipwrecked on Okinawa, and Bushi Matsumura created a kata to teach what that sailor taught him about hand to hand combat and named it after him. that kata's name is Chinto kata.

no history does not bare this out.. in the far east the monks of the shaolin temples and the zen budists who made up the "yamabushi" ( mountian warriors) in japan studied martial arts as a combat art! as a way to weild political and military power, and not as part of their religious training. the combat training , weather it was unarmed or the armed trianing was for that reason, and has nothing to do with zen budism or toism as far as the religion its self.

on Okinawa where Karate comes from there was not a religious component to it. it was taught in secret as a means of self defense and survival of attacks by others .. both armed and unarmed. I am not sure how you figure say kenjitsu was religious either, it was about taking a weapon and using it to kill. the same would be said about most arts. kobujitsu is the art of using tools and things on okinawa as weapons to kill. not as some kind of religious act.

one of the few that would fit that would be the organized criminals of the thugie in India... thay saw the strangulation murder of people for robery as a religious act to one of their poly theistic godeses... kalli if i remember correctly from my history.. but it was not a martial art as such. but it was a good silent killing weapon they used. namly the silk garrate.



I can not speak to the indian styles as i am not that fumilure with it. but as far as the knights templers and Hospitlers .. their combat terchniques and training was not a religious act in and of its self. the defense of pilgrams in the middle east was seen as a religious act in that it was an act of charity, but it had nothing to do with christianity as far as the martial training. most came to that order already trainined in basic combat then.

please go read a good history book about some of this. yes some religious ideas were adopted by some practioners, but the study of Karate, or jujitsu or kempo or kung fu or arnis and most other martial arts were NOT about religion in and of them selves, but about combat and survival of that individual.

 

[searcher]

On the subject of the patch alone, Shinobi, so what?

Realistically, if he wants to use an 'Army of God' kanji as his school symbol, that is his right to do. If that is the school's symbol as of last month, then that is the school's symbol.

There are kanji and symbols in plenty of MA patches that have religious symbolism and the students of those schools are required to either wear the uniform or go elsewhere. They don't ask you to convert, but it is the symbol that the school owner or style has adopted.

Generally, a patch will be symbolic of the culture and philosophy of the style's founder. Like it or not, Christianity is a part of American culture. Nobody raises an eyebrow at Buddhist symbols or referrences in eastern martial arts because we just accept that it is part of the culture. Heck, if the teacher is a genuine Shaolin monk, that is generally looked upon as a plus!

So you have a school that was founded by a minister. While it may not be directly attached to his church, his philosopy will be infused in his teaching. That is his background and where he comes from. A school's philosophy will be to some extent an extension of the owner's.

Out of curiousity, what MA is he teaching? If you've stated this earlier in the thread, my apologies.

Daniel

This is true. Our Isshinryu patch has Megami-The Isshinryu Goddess on it, but I still wear mine.

 

[Josh Oakley]

No my screen name is NOT a play on shinto!! it is the name of a chinese sailor who was shipwrecked on Okinawa, and Bushi Matsumura created a kata to teach what that sailor taught him about hand to hand combat and named it after him. that kata's name is Chinto kata.

This was already pointed out. I bow and humbly ask forgiveness.

no history does not bare this out.. in the far east the monks of the shaolin temples and the zen budists who made up the "yamabushi" ( mountian warriors) in japan studied martial arts as a combat art! as a way to weild political and military power, and not as part of their religious training. the combat training , weather it was unarmed or the armed trianing was for that reason, and has nothing to do with zen budism or toism as far as the religion its self.

Do you want me to quote from the Shaolin Temple Scriptures or quote monks i trained and conversed with to refute you?

Everything I've read on the Yamabushi would point to martial art as part of their religious training.

Heck, if we were to get into it, In Rome, the gladiatorial games were done as a tribute to the gods, as well.

on Okinawa where Karate comes from there was not a religious component to it. it was taught in secret as a means of self defense and survival of attacks by others .. both armed and unarmed. I am not sure how you figure say kenjitsu was religious either, it was about taking a weapon and using it to kill. the same would be said about most arts. kobujitsu is the art of using tools and things on okinawa as weapons to kill. not as some kind of religious act.

Martial arts in Japan is older than Karate. And in any event, I never said that Karate or Kenjutsu were religiously influenced. I did say that some martial arts have no religious component,and some do. Kindly refute the things I actually wrote.

one of the few that would fit that would be the organized criminals of the thugie in India... thay saw the strangulation murder of people for robery as a religious act to one of their poly theistic godeses... kalli if i remember correctly from my history.. but it was not a martial art as such. but it was a good silent killing weapon they used. namly the silk garrate.

Gross oversimplificaton. this is, by far, not the only example.

I can not speak to the indian styles as i am not that fumilure with it.

Yet you did anyway.

but as far as the knights templers and Hospitlers .. their combat terchniques and training was not a religious act in and of its self. the defense of pilgrams in the middle east was seen as a religious act in that it was an act of charity, but it had nothing to do with christianity as far as the martial training. most came to that order already trainined in basic combat then.

Not even close.

please go read a good history book about some of this.

It was my specialty in college.

yes some religious ideas were adopted by some practioners, but the study of Karate, or jujitsu or kempo or kung fu or arnis and most other martial arts were NOT about religion in and of them selves, but about combat and survival of that individual.

So how exactly, then, do we disagree? We're both saying the same thing now. You've shifted your argument, or you were never very clear about it to begin with.

 

[astrobiologist]

This is starting to get a little ugly...
:lurk:


Lots of good arguments. It does sound like a lot of the same arguments back and forth. Some martial arts are known to have a religious base, and there are some that are known to not have had any religious background. I think we all agree on that. Good times.


The question here is how the OP will handle this dilema. I hope Shinobi will share with us how the conversation goes and what his final resolve will be in this situation. As I've said before I hope the instructor is willing to listen to Shinobi, he may not agree and may likely not change his decision to bring the patch and his religious beliefs into his teaching, but this will be a chance for Shinobi to learn more about himself and for the instructor to realize that he needs to be open about the religious aspect of his teaching with new students.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Out of curiousity, what MA is he teaching? If you've stated this earlier in the thread, my apologies.

Daniel

Here's the irony of it, he's teaching Budo Taijutsu. Up until about two years ago (about six months into my training) we were part of the Bujinkan. We wore Bujinkan patches and proudly portrayed ourselves as Bujinkan warriors.

Then he went on a trip to Japan and, when he returned, said that he had separated us from the organization. I'm not too sure what went on, but a lot of us have pieced together that Hatsumi attempted to teach him kuji and sensei said no, as it went against his Christian beliefs, then said he couldn't continue being part of an organization with such Non-Christian practices. Apparently Hatsumi was okay with this, stating that my teacher had been with him long enough, that there was really nothing left to teach him.

So yeah, I've always felt a bit raw about us becoming our own organization, so to speak, but what with the Bujinkan becoming a religious organization itself...I'm not too sure there's really much difference in either.

 

[Josh Oakley]

My bet is you'll probably see your instructor break with the Bujinkan altogether, on account of Hatsumi making it a religion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here's the irony of it, he's teaching Budo Taijutsu. Up until about two years ago (about six months into my training) we were part of the Bujinkan. We wore Bujinkan patches and proudly portrayed ourselves as Bujinkan warriors.

Then he went on a trip to Japan and, when he returned, said that he had separated us from the organization. I'm not too sure what went on, but a lot of us have pieced together that Hatsumi attempted to teach him kuji and sensei said no, as it went against his Christian beliefs, then said he couldn't continue being part of an organization with such Non-Christian practices sooner along the way. Apparently Hatsumi was okay with this, stating that my teacher had been with him long enough, that there was really nothing left to teach him.

So yeah, I've always felt a bit raw about us becoming our own organization, so to speak, but what with the Bujinkan becoming a religious organization itself...I'm not too sure there's really much difference in either.

Well, I can think of one.

From what I understand, Bujinkan's move to religious is for tax purposes. Your sensei is doing so for purely personal spiritual reasons from what you've said.

I can respect your sensei for following his conscience, though it seems odd that to get to such a high level in the Bujinkan that there would be nothing left to teach and somehow not come to this conclusion regarding non-Christian practice. If Kuji was the only beef, it would seem to me that he'd politely learn the technique, meditate on Christ, and thank Hatsumi for his time. Or simply say thanks but no thanks and remain in good standing with the organization.

Daniel

 

[Josh Oakley]

My bet is you'll probably see your instructor break with the Bujinkan altogether, on account of Hatsumi making it a religion.

for some reason I couldn't edit this, so I'll say I just reread and realized that's what happened.

 

[Uchinanchu]

With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough. Simply leave and find somewhere else to study. If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.

 

[jarrod]

Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.

honestly i have already heard it. i would tell them i wasn't interested, & be polite as possible, but i would be annoyed. i don't like being told what to think or believe.

jf

 

[Josh Oakley]

It happens often and I listen. Then again, as an instructor, my viewpoint is one of wanting to know my students, and it's usually my students who share their beliefs with me. And it's not just Christians. Plenty of Buddhists and Wiccans want to share.

 

[Tez3]

With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough. Simply leave and find somewhere else to study. If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.

I'd just say politely no thanks I'm very happy with my beliefs. Although tbh I don't understand the need people have to get others to join their religion. I have no wish for others to join mine, if they really want to there's no reason why they can't but I can't see why I should bother other people with what I believe.

 

[jarrod]

i'm very happy to discuss religion with people; i'm always interested in how people understand the universe & their place in it. i think that ****'s fascinating. but i don't like being told that i have to see it that way too.

jf

 

[Uchinanchu]

With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough. Simply leave and find somewhere else to study. If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.

So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question.
The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should.
Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention.
Yoroshiku