Multiple Points of View

[c2kenpo]

This thread came from another as if all threads dont spawn from some source.

Ed Parker Sr. wrote that in any scenario there are multiple points of view.

1. The attackers point of view.
2. The victim / defenders point of view.
3. And the third outside persons point of view.

Unfortunatly we cannot discuss in this thread an "example scenario" because that would be just one point of view setting the scenario. So in order to delve into this topic (THANKS MJS). I will do so with pictures.

Rules for this thread should be as follows. We take a picture and we give "OUR POINT OF VIEW" as the the event unfolding just as we see it.
NO ARGUMENTS
NO WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG
as Bill O'Riley would say NO SPIN

PICTURE RULES

Nothing too graphic please we are still family orientated here.
We are martial artists and should have some sense of slef-discipline regarding what pictures are okay to share.

This is simply an exercise in showing how differing points of view can occur in the THIRD PERSON PERSPECTIVE. Remember there is no right or wrong just HOW YOU SEE IT. The trick will be to look at the picture POST your Point of view and then read the other posts.
IF YOU POST A PICTURE make sure you give room so no one is influenced by your point of view.

So I will post the first picture and MPOV (My Point of View)

Man in numbered shirt made first attack after an heated argument (unknown topic). The attack began from behind as he grabbed the victims shirt from behind. The victims friend (man in right of photo) attempts to intervene on his behalf. Establishment staff move in to diffuse the situation (arms on left side of picture).


There MPOV

David Gunzburg

Lets have fun with this idea of Multiple Points of View

 

[Touch Of Death]

It looks to me like the guy in the blue was facing his attacker and took the defensive position once the guy in the numbered shirt made his move. The guys cherging in on the right was watching but charged in when the incident began to occur on a physical level.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Thats certainly hard to judge exactly what happened by looking at that picture. Obviously, the fight is already in progress, so we can't tell who started it! It very well could have been the guy in the light blue shirt, and the other guy in the dark shirt is now at the point of defending himself.

I can see how, if someone just happened to walk upon this situation, there could be ALOT of confusion as to what happened. Imagine all of the different stories the cops, and if it goes to court, the judge and jury will be hearing?

Mike

 

[MJS]

Only a few replies here???? Gee, I figured that this thread would start some interesting discussions!

Mike

 

[WLMantisKid]

It seems to me like the guy in the light blue shirt said/did something the guy in the numbered shirt really didn't like, adding to already mounting tension with groups of people around. The guy in the numbered shirt couldn't control himself and immediately starts swinging. He gets one good hit in which makes the light blur shirt fall down and everyone immediately intervenes.

 

[Sapper6]

how can you guys possibly think all this just by looking at a picture? i certainly hope this is for entertainment purposes only :idunno:

 

[WLMantisKid]

This discussion is about how people see things just from a picture... It's about perception, or the lack thereof.

 

[MJS]

how can you guys possibly think all this just by looking at a picture? i certainly hope this is for entertainment purposes only :idunno:

I agree with Mantis Kid here. Didnt you read the title of the thread??? In a past thread, we were talking about cheap shots. One thing lead to another, and next we found ourselves talking about the legal outcome of such shots. We then carried the discussion over to potential witnesses and their view of whats happening.

By posting that picture, c2kenpo is putting us in a situation as potential witnesses to this assault. So....to answer your question of how we can think of all this. Well, this is exactly what you'd find, if this were a real case, with a real jury...many different outlooks.

Mike

 

[bdparsons]

This discussion is about how people see things just from a picture... It's about perception, or the lack thereof.

Interesting... If this was a video clip I could see the point. As it is I find this a lame excuse for "talking martial arts". How in the word can any intelligent discussion occur without knowing the facts and what has occured prior to the photo being taken? It can't. Kinda reminds me of a martial arts Rorshach (sp) test. Here's a blob on a piece of paper, what do you see? My take is that anyone's perception is going to be skewed based on the presuppositions you bring to the table. It's like a lawyer taking a single frame out of a motion picture of an automobile accident and determining everything that happened. These situations don't occur in a vaccum, therefore shouldn't be discussed in one.

As far as being "potential witnesses"... How ineffective is that? "I'm sorry, sir, I'm deaf and my eyes were only open for 1/100th of second."

C'mon people, get realistic.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[kenpo_cory]

This thread came from another as if all threads dont spawn from some source.

Ed Parker Sr. wrote that in any scenario there are multiple points of view.

1. The attackers point of view.
2. The victim / defenders point of view.
3. And the third outside persons point of view.

In our school we say there are 4 points of view. The 4th being that of the weapon. I know weapons can't see but it makes for an interesting point of view.

 

[WLMantisKid]

bdparsons, I fail to see why you don't understand this.

This is a forum for discussion about various things... this in turn is a discussion about what we as martial artists would perceive if we happened to come up on this scene at the moment of the picture. It's about sharing views about how we would perceive things...

Please refrain from being rude when you see a discussion that you do not like.

 

[MJS]

Interesting... If this was a video clip I could see the point. As it is I find this a lame excuse for "talking martial arts". How in the word can any intelligent discussion occur without knowing the facts and what has occured prior to the photo being taken? It can't. Kinda reminds me of a martial arts Rorshach (sp) test. Here's a blob on a piece of paper, what do you see? My take is that anyone's perception is going to be skewed based on the presuppositions you bring to the table. It's like a lawyer taking a single frame out of a motion picture of an automobile accident and determining everything that happened. These situations don't occur in a vaccum, therefore shouldn't be discussed in one.

As far as being "potential witnesses"... How ineffective is that? "I'm sorry, sir, I'm deaf and my eyes were only open for 1/100th of second."

C'mon people, get realistic.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

You are obviously missing the point here! You state that you dont know any of the facts?? Ok, and what do you think is gonna happen when you walk into the parking lot from the movie that you just saw, and you see this situation? Its the same thing. Of course, to think that every time you witness a situation, you'll be right there from start to finish is foolish. Its hard to believe that people cant seem to understand the meaning of this.

Mike

 

[MJS]

bdparsons, I fail to see why you don't understand this.

This is a forum for discussion about various things... this in turn is a discussion about what we as martial artists would perceive if we happened to come up on this scene at the moment of the picture. It's about sharing views about how we would perceive things...

Please refrain from being rude when you see a discussion that you do not like.

There is a word to describe people like this--clueless.

Mike

 

[someguy]

There are clueless people in this world but we all are to some extent or another. My self especially some times...
I'm clueless to everything when my brain is gone.
Me right now
Oh pretty shiny thing can I touch it. oh so sharp. Hey look red stuff coming out of my finger...
not quite that bad but
I'm done with all my finals though so I have a bit to recover in.

 

[MJS]

There are clueless people in this world but we all are to some extent or another. My self especially some times...
I'm clueless to everything when my brain is gone.
Me right now
Oh pretty shiny thing can I touch it. oh so sharp. Hey look red stuff coming out of my finger...
not quite that bad but
I'm done with all my finals though so I have a bit to recover in.

Very true. However, I still find it hard to believe that there is such a heated debate over the picture, rather than what the picture is showing. Regarding bdparsons post. Let me use this example to show how crazy this is. You could have an armed robbery at a bank. There could be a total of 10 people in the bank. 2 men could rush in, guns drawn, telling people to get down on the floor. They steal the money, and flee the bank in a car. Now, I'd bet anything I own, that you could interview EVERYBODY in that bank, and you WILL get MANY different versions of what happened. You'll have different views on what the plate on the car was, what they were wearing, a direction of travel, etc. and the list can go on. THAT is the idea of the picture. To show and discuss the MANY different view points of a situation.

There of course is a very simple solution to all of this. If you dont like the topic of the thread or the way the discussion is going, then its very simple....Dont post!!!! But dont take away from what other people want to do!

Mike

 

[Disco]

Just basing immediate info available - photo, numbered shirt is going to jail. No additional information is needed. Now the additional information will bolster the arrest, but it's not need to make the arrest. Who can tell me why?

 

[MJS]

Just basing immediate info available - photo, numbered shirt is going to jail. No additional information is needed. Now the additional information will bolster the arrest, but it's not need to make the arrest. Who can tell me why?

Its very obvious in the pic. that the numbered shirt is the aggressor. The police will show up, possibly see this, and automatically assume that he started the fight. Also, anyone who walks into this situation midway, will most likely think the same thing.

Mike

 

[MGM]

The basic problem with this exercise is not that we are third party viewers it is the scope and length of our view. We have no way of knowing what happened before or after this split second shot. It is as if we are on a train moving at 100mph and saw this scene for 1/10 of a second. In that limited of a time it is impossible to tell what is happening.

Who says it is even a fight?

What if all the people in the photo are buddies out for the night? Guy on the ground is walking next to guy in numbered shirt guy on the ground trips over what looks like a cement block or curb. His buddy grabs him by the back of the shirt to stop him from falling but being half in the bag himself starts to fall backward over same curb. And that is the moment we are witnessing the other 3 friends moving to try to stop him from falling.

 

[Disco]

Who says it is even a fight?

The shirt grab, closed fist and aggressive stance say it's a fight. It dosen't matter what has happened before or after this scene. The person on the ground has become a non-combatant. Therefor, the only offending party is the guy standing, holding and in the perceived process of delivering a strike to a helpless person. Just that scene unto itself constitutes an assualt under the law.

 

[MGM]

The only person in the photo with a free closed fist is the guy on the ground. The guy in the numbered shirt has his right hand open. Nothing inherently aggressive in his stance, he looks to be a little off balance to me.