Multiple Points of View

[Disco]

The guy in the numbered shirt has his hand open? His hand is just as closed as the guy on the ground. It surely is not open. If you think that his stance is non-aggressive, what stance would you assume to hit somebody?

 

[MJS]

The basic problem with this exercise is not that we are third party viewers it is the scope and length of our view. We have no way of knowing what happened before or after this split second shot. It is as if we are on a train moving at 100mph and saw this scene for 1/10 of a second. In that limited of a time it is impossible to tell what is happening.

Who says it is even a fight?

What if all the people in the photo are buddies out for the night? Guy on the ground is walking next to guy in numbered shirt guy on the ground trips over what looks like a cement block or curb. His buddy grabs him by the back of the shirt to stop him from falling but being half in the bag himself starts to fall backward over same curb. And that is the moment we are witnessing the other 3 friends moving to try to stop him from falling.

I dont care if we are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 10th party viewers to this!! It does NOT matter!!! Who cares if we did not see it from the beginning. I dont see why everybody is so fixated with continuing to say this. What matters and what the entire point of all of this is, is that we are looking at the MANY..I'll say it again..MANY different viewpoints here!!! I cant believe that people honestly think that they have to be first hand viewers to every situation. If you look at a jury, are they first hand viewers?? Of course not!! They are walking into the middle of a case that has ALREADY happened, and they need to base a decision on what they are told DURING the court proceedings.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The only person in the photo with a free closed fist is the guy on the ground. The guy in the numbered shirt has his right hand open. Nothing inherently aggressive in his stance, he looks to be a little off balance to me.

The guy in the numbered shirt has his hand open? His hand is just as closed as the guy on the ground. It surely is not open. If you think that his stance is non-aggressive, what stance would you assume to hit somebody?

Well people, here you go! Here are two posts. The first one by MGM, and the second by Disco. This is a perfect example, and a very good one too, regarding the different viewpoints that people are going to have. Its very similar to my example using the bank robbery. Here you have 2 people both looking at this pic. and 1 person thinks that the guy standing has his fist open, while the other thinks that it is closed. Same pic. shown to both, but yet there is a question about what is happening.

This is what the main idea of this thread is about....looking at the different viewpoints. Good job guys.

Mike

 

[c2kenpo]

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!!!!

:boing2:

Mike, First thanks for keeping the right thought pattern alive. Great job!!

To all the posters this is an "EXERCISE" nothing more. To get us to think a bit of how we view things in the world. A martial artist doesn't always do the form or the technique the same way all the time every time. Most of us "modify" or "change" what we are doing to fit us better for various reasons.
This is an exercise to see "DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW" not who was right or wrong, and yes for those who dont like the thread. Don't post.
Say something nice / contribute that creates a positive atmosphere negative thought or comments serves nothing.

I am very happy to see some of the comments and thoughts here. MJS if you care to pick the next picture for review be my guest.

 

[Disco]

MJS, I don't think it's a matter of viewpoint as much as a matter of observation. It's not like a zen thing here; the glass is half empty or it's half full. This is an absolute. Either the hand is open or it's closed. Which do you feel it is?

 

[MJS]

MJS, I don't think it's a matter of viewpoint as much as a matter of observation. It's not like a zen thing here; the glass is half empty or it's half full. This is an absolute. Either the hand is open or it's closed. Which do you feel it is?

Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm trying to keep this moving, unlike some who seem fixated on questioning why we're doing this. A viewpoint and an observation are going to be the same thing, if you stop and think about it. If someone is observing something, they will form their own viewpoint of what they saw. Same thing, just said a little different.

Mike

 

[MJS]

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!!!!

:boing2:

Mike, First thanks for keeping the right thought pattern alive. Great job!!

Thank you! :asian: I'm doing my best to keep it alive and going!!

To all the posters this is an "EXERCISE" nothing more. To get us to think a bit of how we view things in the world. A martial artist doesn't always do the form or the technique the same way all the time every time. Most of us "modify" or "change" what we are doing to fit us better for various reasons.
This is an exercise to see "DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW" not who was right or wrong, and yes for those who dont like the thread. Don't post.
Say something nice / contribute that creates a positive atmosphere negative thought or comments serves nothing.

I agree!

I am very happy to see some of the comments and thoughts here. MJS if you care to pick the next picture for review be my guest.

Not sure where to find the pics. or how I'd go about posting them here. Please feel free to get another and post it!

Mike

 

[c2kenpo]

OKay next pic seems that those participating in the exercise are getting the idea of just giving an opinion of what tiher point of view is and simply leaving it at that.

Remember the "WHY" I am setting this thread is to get people to look at things from different angles not to start a heated debate. Every thread here can do that. Save your debates on something else for now. "EXERCISE" your thought process.

I actually got the idea from the Warshack test system. So whomever the poster was on that yes you are correct that it implies the same thing.

How we view the world is just as important as what we plan to do in it.

Next pic same rules as before.

POV :~ Two kids one the agressor or bully in the blue sweatshirt. The other defending against him , possibly agressor attempting to take something from the other. Of course the defender on the ground trying to strike a groin area.

Remember this is just what my brain is seeing at this exact moment in time and how I translated it to everyone. Now Translate yours and lets see the diversity in this exercise.

David Gunzburg

 

[MJS]

Not sure exactly where this next pic. is taking place, but heres my POV. The kid on the ground appears to really not want anything to do with the kid standing. The one standing appears to really not be that aggessive due to the fact that hes still keeping some distance, and more or less just 'pawing' at each other.

Mike

 

[WLMantisKid]

I see three kids trying to bully the one on his knees into giving something up or just to be plain bullied.

 

[MGM]

It dosen't matter what has happened before or after this scene. The person on the ground has become a non-combatant. Therefor, the only offending party is the guy standing, holding and in the perceived process of delivering a strike to a helpless person. .

That is ridiculous! Of course what happened before and what will happen after matters.

Let’s say it is a fight.

What if the next thing to happen is the guy on the ground (GOG) turns stands and stabs the guy in the numbered shirt (NS) in the neck. We can’t see his right hand he could easily have a knife in an ankle or waist holster. And numbered shirt dies.

Who’s going to jail?

Or

Lets say NS came home to find his wife raped and murdered just as he discovers her body he hears a sound. He sees GOG running out of the house, he gives chase. The snapshot that we see is when he catches GOG delivers one punch and is working on second when the good Samaritans we see in the far left and right rush in to stop him. All they saw was NS chasing GOG and looking like he planed to give him a beating. So they hold both of them until the police arrive. Police arrive listen to stories, find wife of NS and blood all over GOG shirt and pants (we can’t see them so who knows).

Who’s going to jail? Could be both of them but do you think NS will be arrested for hitting a guy once that just killed his wife? I don’t know any cops that would arrest him given that circumstance.

Just that scene unto itself constitutes an assualt under the law.

Yes but all that is required for an assault is to lay your hands on someone (I don’t recall if battery is limited to fists or if it includes open hands so it may actually be battery). So with those rules the man at the far right is committing an assault on NS and it appears that the 2 people at the far left are about to do the same. Do you thank if they do nothing else they are going to Jail for something so simple?

 

[Disco]

That is ridiculous! Of course what happened before and what will happen after matters.

Were basing everything upon the picture and what is being presented by it. You can't go interjecting what if's as before and after. Any number of scenarios can be dreamed up, as your rape and chase story shows.

As for pic #2 and for pic #1 for that matter. The viewpoints of all of us are being contaminated because an explanation is also being given with the pic. We are being told what is happening. Post another pic and this time don't give your viewpoint of what is taking place. Just let people determine on their own, what they think is going on.

And just for the record, just putting your hands on someone does not unto itself become assualt. The circumstances and intent which allow the action to take place, plays a major role in determining assualt. By someone restricting an attack on another is not considered an assualt by the restricting person.

 

[MJS]

I have to go with Disco on this one. We are basing our viewpoints ONLY on what we are CURRENTLY seeing. How can we know what happened before, if we were not there before? Physically impossible! Now, if we saw the fight from start to finish, then yes, I could see being able to have a more complete story.

Mike

We take a picture and we give "OUR POINT OF VIEW" as the the event unfolding just as we see it.

The above quote was what c2kenpo posted when he started this thread. By reading this, you can figure out that we are viewing a situation in the middle of the action. Therefore, we have no idea what happened before.

 

[c2kenpo]

I have to go with Disco on this one. We are basing our viewpoints ONLY on what we are CURRENTLY seeing. How can we know what happened before, if we were not there before? Physically impossible! Now, if we saw the fight from start to finish, then yes, I could see being able to have a more complete story.

Mike



The above quote was what c2kenpo posted when he started this thread. By reading this, you can figure out that we are viewing a situation in the middle of the action. Therefore, we have no idea what happened before.

Exactly Mike,

Imagine hearing a noise and turning aroudn and BAM that is what you see. Give your view point is all.
Of course what happed previously and aftward will affect the outcome but that isn't the exercise.
Just say what you see. And pay attention to the directions Look at Picture Add your comments first, attempt to avoid reading others as not to be influenced. Of course that shows how easy it is to influence a thought pattern of another individual through simple suggestion..
Then go back and read them. I know this isn't an easy way to do this but I am trying to be creative here.


Dave Gunzburg