Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[Dale Seago]

But Dale can tell you how he got freaked out within the first few minutes of class when we did taihenjutsu drills.:erg: Of course, Dale is good enough to be pushed like that and the rest of us were known quantities.

No, actually, what freaked me out was trying to do several cross-stepping punches in succession. . .

Seriously though, I can relate to the guy who said he didn't come back because he was afraid he might get hurt and miss out on further training as a result. There was a period where, for a while, whenever I came over I just hoped to survive more-or-less intact.

I'm genuinely curious about there being numerous accounts of bujinkan students saving lives with their techniques (including their own), as I hear this constantly, but I've never actually seen someone tell of their own experiences.

I've done it, so have many others. Here's something that occurred just yesterday from one of my students, who handles security for a nonprofit foundation located in a seedy part of town:

So... I had to put a guy in the hospital today. It was about a minute to 5:00 pm; and the staff was about to depart en masse. I heard a loud argument right outside the window behind me (not unusual), then the distinct and painful sound of someone getting hit three times in rapid succession thudthud THUD. If you have heard that sound before, you knowhow ugly it is. Anyway, I went to the door, and observed an African-American male, about 6-2 / 200, beating on an Asian male about5-6 /140. The little guy appeared to be putting up a valiant effort, but his nose was bleeding pretty bad. Who started it? Who knows... but they were right in the doorway my staff people needed to use in a few seconds.

"Get the f@#k out of here!", I yelled at both of them. "I'vealready called the police!" Actually, I had not, but this didn't seem like a good time to mention it. I took one more step; the little guystarted to fade back, the big guy started coming in. I was in between."I haven't slept in three days, and I can kick BOTH of your asses!" I took one step back, and held my arm up in the universal gesture of "stop". That's when the guy threw the right at me.

Nice. I didn't let him hit me (cool), but his locked up arm kinda got stuck diagonally across my shoulder and opposite hip, and he made about 1/4 of a circle before his face smashed into the wall conveniently located at my right. He slid down the wall like a cartoon, and was pretty much out. Which was good, since when I cuffed him, I had to be a little extra careful of his right arm. It was extra-bendy. Just then the cops came around the corner with the little guy, and he jumps out to make a positive ID. The cops looked at me, then the big guy on the ground...then me...and called him an ambulance.

And...I even got my cuffs back this time

Please excuse me for the lame attempts at humor, but it this has been happening so much lately, it's either laugh or cry. I will NOT let them make me cry, so....

By the way, the student who went through this yesterday is a 48-year-old woman.

 

[Bigshadow]

Thanks Dale for such a positive post! Even though I am convinced regarding our training, it is still wonderful to hear of it in action.

 

[Dale Seago]

Thanks Dale for such a positive post! Even though I am convinced regarding our training, it is still wonderful to hear of it in action.

What she did, BTW, was a gyaku-zeoi nage which sort of got interrupted by the wall as the guy's arm broke. . .

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nice story Dale!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Plus I have to ask, how close of a connection to Japan did your instructors have? In this training, the game of 6 degrees to Japan doesn't work.

People who don't visit Japan several times a year are most often much "harder" in their approach.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

While it certainly isn't universal, an almost cult-like reverence seems to surround the man, and the idea of one man and a small group of instructors with him having some kind of exclusive handle on progress just seems absurd to me.

They are, however, THE source of information regarding Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what we are mainly interested in.

Besides - I've said this before and I might as well say it again - not many things have made me so proud of being where I'm currently at as the time when my teacher said that it should be the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that everyone is fit enough to push themselves beyond their current limits.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

People who don't visit Japan several times a year are most often much "harder" in their approach.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no! It really all depends on the individual instructor.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[lalom]

They are, however, THE source of information regarding Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what we are mainly interested in.

Besides - I've said this before and I might as well say it again - not many things have made me so proud of being where I'm currently at as the time when my teacher said that it should be the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that everyone is fit enough to push themselves beyond their current limits.

I seem to have lost the point of this thread somewhere in my following these posts. What is the intention of this thread?

 

[Zaii]

What is it specifically you are after? I certainly haven't seen anything thus far in this thread.

I asked what was considered "hard" training in the bujinkan, and as an aside, where one might claim to find it, and thus far only received one straight answer. That one was from Don Roley.

 

[Koinu]

So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?

Reading this type of refuse on BBS makes me laugh.

(1) Do you really think that any teacher can run large open classes to people who can range from visitors, mukyu's to Shihan and teach them all hard and nasty stuff when he would know less than 10% of those present personally and at what level of skills or control they may or may not possess?

(2) As most of us including Mr Hayes would fall into the above demographic , what would any of US know about what and or how hard the inner circle is trained then, now or into the future ?

 

[Bigshadow]

I asked what was considered "hard" training in the bujinkan, and as an aside, where one might claim to find it, and thus far only received one straight answer. That one was from Don Roley.

Hmmm.... Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread. I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion. Plus he said it better.

 

[ginshun]

Reading this type of refuse on BBS makes me laugh.

(1) Do you really think that any teacher can run large open classes to people who can range from visitors, mukyu's to Shihan and teach them all hard and nasty stuff when he would know less than 10% of those present personally and at what level of skills or control they may or may not possess?

(2) As most of us including Mr Hayes would fall into the above demographic , what would any of US know about what and or how hard the inner circle is trained then, now or into the future ?

Why not try to be consistant and make sense. In point number one you question whether or not anybody could teach "hard and nasty" techniques to people they don't know well, and then in the next breath you basically claim that nobody even knows whether or not there was any hardcore training in the past or now.

So what exactly is your answer to my question? Was training hardcore in the past and isn't anymore or was it never harcore? Or was it always somewhere inbetween?

In the midst of your condescention you seem to have completely forgoten to actually answer the question. I asked a very staightforward question of Mr. Roley, there is no need to be nasty or insulting in answering it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hmmm.... Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread. I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion. Plus he said it better.

Ditto.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Koinu]

Why not try to be consistant and make sense.

Made perfect sense to me your mileage may vary !

In point number one you question whether or not anybody could teach "hard and nasty" techniques to people they don't know well,

Yes

and then in the next breath you basically claim that nobody even knows whether or not there was any hardcore training in the past or now.

where exactly did I say NOBODY ? I said most of us !

So what exactly is your answer to my question? Was training hardcore in the past and isn't anymore or was it never harcore? Or was it always somewhere in between ?

I have none, as I was not training in the 70's .

In the midst of your condescention you seem to have completely forgoten to actually answer the question. I asked a very staightforward question of Mr. Roley, there is no need to be nasty or insulting in answering it.

And as far as I can see Don has answered your question. If you have any further I suggest going to one of Soke's or the Shihans classes and ask them in person.

What I will say though is that my instructor is GENERALLY light and friendly and does not break you
things only tend to get REAL hard and nasty when people try him out (I have many times and paid for it heavily).
So therefore it may well hold true that in that period of time many of the Gaijin (most whom had trained for many years in other arts) were trying out the new Soke of the Bujinkan and he responded with a lesson they would not soon forget. Food for thought eh !

 

[Blotan Hunka]

From the horses mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY&mode=related&search=

 

[Don Roley]

From the horses mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY&mode=related&search=

There was a thread on another site that really got nasty over that clip. The end result seems to be that Hayes might be trying to put as good a light on his training as he can. But when you ask the Japanese if anything has been dropped or added from training, they disagree. The only difference is in the harshness.

 

[Zaii]

Hmmm.... Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread. I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion. Plus he said it better.

So.....many people felt the need to make lengthy replies that all came before his save for one....yet didn't want to clutter the thread by "repeating what he said". Eh? People took the time to wax at length about a myriad of topics before he replied, thus, they wouldn't have his opinion to repeat. The logic escapes me here.

 

[Don Roley]

So.....many people felt the need to make lengthy replies that all came before his save for one....yet didn't want to clutter the thread by "repeating what he said". Eh? People took the time to wax at length about a myriad of topics before he replied, thus, they wouldn't have his opinion to repeat. The logic escapes me here.

It is simple. If there is something new to be gained by relating experience then people will say something. But if it is short and sweet like a definition, then people look a little silly by posting with "I agree."

If you ask opinions, everyone will chime in. If you ask definitions, then as soon as the right one is posted people will be satisfied with that.

 

[MrFunnieman]

There was a thread on another site that really got nasty over that clip.

Don, out of curiosity, what was the controversy over the clip? Were some people thinking Hayes embellished his early experiences? That would be my initial reaction after watching the clip. The times I heard him talk or in conversations I had with him, that's his standard story. Personally, I think he puts his theater skills to work

 

[Don Roley]

Let us leave that thread for that forum. I have seen some people take threads from other forums and turned them into debate on others. I don't think the moderators of either like that.

I only mentioned it because Blotan Hunka posted the clip and said it was straight from the horses mouth. I think that only Hatsumi can really be counted on as being the one source to go to on the matter. You seem to think that Hayes embellished his early experiences and it would be in his best interest to do so. Many others have pointed out the same concerns.

If you really want to know about the matter, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it.