Moving this summer

[skribs]

I would agree with your lean toward the second school. But I would caution you not to promise yourself or the Master anything. There could be more school specific stuff than you think. If you came to my school it would be at least one-steps from white belt, saju kong bongs from white belt, and ho sin suls (grab defenses) from yellow belt. Plus we do all taegeuks until brown belt, then switch to chang hon. So if you were entering my school from a school that doesn’t incorporate those, you would have a TON to learn.

I find it hard to imagine there's a category of content that we're not doing at my school. We do punch defense, kick defense, grab defense, weapon defense, weapon forms, weapon drills...a new school would obviously have different details, but I think I'd be able to adapt pretty quick.

With that said, the Master's attitude at the school I'm looking at is that he doesn't want to over-test. So I have a feeling, based on his words, that he probably has less rote material than I'm used to. Of course, he may have more than he's put on Youtube, but at least I'd have a leg up.

So go in willing and interested, but clear on taking it slowly and building relationships. Also, I get wanting to introduce yourself face to face, however, don’t try to do it right before a class starts. If they are anything like mine, I feel like most Masters will be a little rushed and may not feel like they have enough time to talk with you properly.

At my current school, that would have been virtually impossible before COVID, because he would schedule one class to end at 5:10 and the next one to start at 5:10. With that said, that's what the other instructors are for - so he can have office time between classes and not feel rushed.

 

[auntlisa1103]

I hear what you are saying. And you certainly know the techniques. But the choreography of the individual one steps etc are specific to our school and the schools started by our instructors who branched out. 14 numbered one steps and 13 numbered ho sin suls just to brown belt. And of course if you are hoping to teach them, you’ll have to learn them.

All I’m saying, is plan on giving it time.

 

[skribs]

I hear what you are saying. And you certainly know the techniques. But the choreography of the individual one steps etc are specific to our school and the schools started by our instructors who branched out. 14 numbered one steps and 13 numbered ho sin suls just to brown belt. And of course if you are hoping to teach them, you’ll have to learn them.

All I’m saying, is plan on giving it time.

On the one hand, I wouldn't need to have them memorized to be an assistant instructor. I can just follow along in class and help out with the technical side.

On the other hand, I memorize things very, very fast. If I had a video or notes, I could probably memorize 27 self-defense pieces in a week; maybe less. It only took me a weekend to memorize all 8 Taegeuks. (I still had details to learn about the Taegeuk style, but it only took a week to get the gist).

 

[skribs]

I'll be heading down for a long weekend between now and when I move. I might get a chance to talk with him then.

 

[Buka]

You know, Skribs, as I read this thread each day, I forgot something.

Best of luck and deserved good fortune to you in your upcoming move, bro.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I'll be moving around 2000 miles this summer. My family has been growing unhappy with the local politics. My sister and her family moved 2 years ago. My parents (2nd and 3rd Dan in TKD) moved last year. I (3rd Dan, very near 4th) will be moving this year. I had my Dad scout around the different schools within our organization that are also within driving distance of where they live. He went to one school that's about 15-20 minutes away, and the Master's attitude was, "I wouldn't know what class to put him in; and this school is like a family, how would the students think if I brought in someone outside the family?"

I am not sure how old you are. If you are out of your teen years, maybe the other school is also concerned that you may have a plan to impress his students, then setup your own school (taking some of his students). And so he would want to meet you and try to judge your motives and sincerity.

 

[skribs]

I am not sure how old you are. If you are out of your teen years, maybe the other school is also concerned that you may have a plan to impress his students, then setup your own school (taking some of his students). And so he would want to meet you and try to judge your motives and sincerity.

Early 30s.

Whether or not that was going through his head, he didn't sound very welcoming or very enthusiastic about getting a high ranking student. My current Master has some jealousy issues (which have caused problems between him and me before), so this may be something similar. He may only want people high ranking that he raised.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Whether or not that was going through his head, he didn't sound very welcoming or very enthusiastic about getting a high ranking student. My current Master has some jealousy issues (which have caused problems between him and me before), so this may be something similar. He may only want people high ranking that he raised.

If the head instructor feels threatened by a sincere advanced student, he has not mastered his ego, and in my eyes, is not a "master." Or perhaps he realizes his knowledge is not commensurate to his rank and feels inadequate. I enjoy teaching 2nd and 3rd degrees, and would not hesitate working with a 4th degree - if they are willing to learn. They may have superior raw physical abilities but I'm confident in my knowledge and experience. And maybe I can even pick up a technique/concept or two from them.

Now, if sub-par, I would likely let them keep their rank as a courtesy but let them know where they are deficient and require them to work on those areas before letting them exercise that rank. If the student is not sincere and has designs to subvert my dojo or otherwise shows disrespect, I would certainly give him the boot.

 

[skribs]

If the head instructor feels threatened by a sincere advanced student, he has not mastered his ego, and in my eyes, is not a "master." Or perhaps he realizes his knowledge is not commensurate to his rank and feels inadequate. I enjoy teaching 2nd and 3rd degrees, and would not hesitate working with a 4th degree - if they are willing to learn. They may have superior raw physical abilities but I'm confident in my knowledge and experience. And maybe I can even pick up a technique/concept or two from them.

Now, if sub-par, I would likely let them keep their rank as a courtesy but let them know where they are deficient and require them to work on those areas before letting them exercise that rank. If the student is not sincere and has designs to subvert my dojo or otherwise shows disrespect, I would certainly give him the boot.

It may not even be that. A lot of people take it as a personal offense that someone else is good at something. In this case, the jealousy wouldn't be towards me, but rather towards my current Master. A lot of Taekwondo schools like to claim they're the best (for a variety of reasons), and the fact that another school can also put out a good student is evidence against that.

It's the same as someone from one martial art bashing another, even though both arts have their pros and cons.

 

[wab25]

My current Master has some jealousy issues (which have caused problems between him and me before), so this may be something similar.

In this case, the jealousy wouldn't be towards me, but rather towards my current Master.

I am confused... who is jealous of who? The first statement seems to imply that your current master is jealous of someone... and the second seems to imply that someone would be jealous of your current master.... And now I am confused as to who is jealous of who...

 

[skribs]

I am confused... who is jealous of who? The first statement seems to imply that your current master is jealous of someone... and the second seems to imply that someone would be jealous of your current master.... And now I am confused as to who is jealous of who...

My guess is that the school owner who is very anxious about high-level students coming in probably has some jealousy or insecurity issue regarding high-level students from other schools. In this case, it's possible he feels insecure like @isshinryuronin suggested, that he is insecure about his rank and knowledge, and that if I were to outperform him, it would be a blow to his ego. My thought was similar, except under the assumption that he is competent, but that if I am as good as his other instructors, it would crumble his narrative about his school being the best. (These are wild guesses based on a small amount of 2nd-hand information, but inferred based on my experience talking with a lot of folks about martial arts).

My comment about my current Master was part of why I feel my guess is an educated guess, and not just a wild guess. My Master has shown jealousy issues. If my Master can, another Master can. His are a little bit different. One is simply being jealous of my time as an instructor (which is one reason I've almost left a few times), in that he sometimes wanted me to have a bigger time commitment than I wanted. Others were being jealous of when students would come to me for advice, because he's the Master (which is another reason I've almost left a few times). It's not just me. When I'd only been with him a few years, I spoke to a long-time student of his (who was with him for 12 years), and she was shocked I'd stayed as his instructor as long as I'd had, because I'd already outlasted everyone else she had seen.

He's great with his students, but runs into issues with staff. This is also part of the reason I keep my anonymity on here. I don't want to publicly call anyone out, especially someone that I did learn a lot from (my current Master) and someone who I may be making quite unfair assumptions about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that would largely depend on the system being taught.

If I were to move and join a new BJJ school, I would expect to wear my black belt. Most instructors would consider it strange or some sort of prank if I did not. (There are one or two prominent instructors I am aware of who do not automatically recognize rank from other schools, but they are in a vanishingly small minority. If I was joining one of their schools, then I would go along with whatever they wanted me to wear.)

If I joined a school for a system I wasn't ranked in, then I would expect to wear a white belt or the equivalent for that art.

That'd be about the same for me within NGA. Most schools would expect me to wear my rank (either my current rank equivalent in their school, or the last rank I earned in the NGAA), or might ask me to rank down by one until they have a chance to verify my current skill level (a common practice within the NGAA). Some would be bothered by a relatively current BB not wearing that rank, and it'd be tough for me because I have trouble not sharing what I can to help folks I train with (which is traditionally only done by relatively senior student ranks or higher). The rank indicator (belt) makes it easier for folks to know what to expect, as well.

And if I was joining in another style, I'd be wearing white.

Of course, both of those are generalizations, subject to the culture of the individual dojo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll be heading down for a long weekend between now and when I move. I might get a chance to talk with him then.

That seems like a good idea. Get a chance to say hi, talk for a few minutes (more if he wants) and start gauging the scene. You might find something that sparks some change in your thought on approach.

I think it's fine to be up-front with your desire to join the instructional staff when he thinks you're ready (that wording can help avoid an appearance of hubris). If I were joinging another NGA school, I'd make it clear that I want to start helping teach as soon as it's reasonable. Even if their curriculum was significantly different (it wouldn't be, but a nice hypothetical), the principles are still the same, and I can help people with those even if I don't know a specific variation of a form or technique. And if someone with rank in NGA was joining my (hypothetical) school, I'd be asking them up front if they had an interest in teaching at some point (how they answered would be more important than whether the answer was "yes" or "no").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Early 30s.

Whether or not that was going through his head, he didn't sound very welcoming or very enthusiastic about getting a high ranking student. My current Master has some jealousy issues (which have caused problems between him and me before), so this may be something similar. He may only want people high ranking that he raised.

This happens. My instructor had a problem with my rank when I visited another instructor's class at his school (my rank indicators are different from theirs). Mind you, the instructor I was visiting had no issue with it, and students seemed unconcerned (in fact, most wouldn't have even seen them, under my hakama). It was a control thing.

I also ran into that kind of guarding when looking for a place to teach. The guy in Shorin-ryu who pointed me to the Shorin-ryu dojo where I ended up teaching gently warned me not to approach another Shorin-ryu school, because that instructor didn't like having anyone near his rank around him. He didn't even like older, higher-ranking students from his instructor (folks who weren't interested in teaching) attending his classes. In fact, that was what led to one of them opening her own place - in part to have a place for the yudansha to train together - which was where I ended up teaching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the head instructor feels threatened by a sincere advanced student, he has not mastered his ego, and in my eyes, is not a "master." Or perhaps he realizes his knowledge is not commensurate to his rank and feels inadequate. I enjoy teaching 2nd and 3rd degrees, and would not hesitate working with a 4th degree - if they are willing to learn. They may have superior raw physical abilities but I'm confident in my knowledge and experience. And maybe I can even pick up a technique/concept or two from them.

Now, if sub-par, I would likely let them keep their rank as a courtesy but let them know where they are deficient and require them to work on those areas before letting them exercise that rank. If the student is not sincere and has designs to subvert my dojo or otherwise shows disrespect, I would certainly give him the boot.

The common approach in the NGAA when someone didn't meet a new school's criteria was to either have them step down a rank until they could test for the rank they previously held, or (if they were just deficient in some specific areas) take private lessons with one of the instructors for a few weeks to improve where needed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It may not even be that. A lot of people take it as a personal offense that someone else is good at something. In this case, the jealousy wouldn't be towards me, but rather towards my current Master. A lot of Taekwondo schools like to claim they're the best (for a variety of reasons), and the fact that another school can also put out a good student is evidence against that.

It's the same as someone from one martial art bashing another, even though both arts have their pros and cons.

I hadn't even thought of that. I can see how that might happen, if an instructor has built their image within the school that other instructors simply aren't very good, so they're lucky to train with him.

 

[Yokozuna514]

My guess is that the school owner who is very anxious about high-level students coming in probably has some jealousy or insecurity issue regarding high-level students from other schools. In this case, it's possible he feels insecure like @isshinryuronin suggested, that he is insecure about his rank and knowledge, and that if I were to outperform him, it would be a blow to his ego. My thought was similar, except under the assumption that he is competent, but that if I am as good as his other instructors, it would crumble his narrative about his school being the best. (These are wild guesses based on a small amount of 2nd-hand information, but inferred based on my experience talking with a lot of folks about martial arts).

My comment about my current Master was part of why I feel my guess is an educated guess, and not just a wild guess. My Master has shown jealousy issues. If my Master can, another Master can. His are a little bit different. One is simply being jealous of my time as an instructor (which is one reason I've almost left a few times), in that he sometimes wanted me to have a bigger time commitment than I wanted. Others were being jealous of when students would come to me for advice, because he's the Master (which is another reason I've almost left a few times). It's not just me. When I'd only been with him a few years, I spoke to a long-time student of his (who was with him for 12 years), and she was shocked I'd stayed as his instructor as long as I'd had, because I'd already outlasted everyone else she had seen.

He's great with his students, but runs into issues with staff. This is also part of the reason I keep my anonymity on here. I don't want to publicly call anyone out, especially someone that I did learn a lot from (my current Master) and someone who I may be making quite unfair assumptions about.

Or he could simply not have a need for another instructor at the moment or he could have an evaluation process that takes months or years before deciding on who will be an 'instructor' at the school. First and foremost the school is a small business. Not everyone is willing to turn over a class to someone they just met, regardless, of the rank they wear around their waist. Sure, an introduction letter from someone the owner knows would perhaps help but rank itself may not open the door to a teaching opportunity.

You may also go in to a few classes and decide you don't like the energy and flow of the instruction. They may have a different emphasis or focus. They may also just do things differently. They may be more focused on fitness instead of technique or they may be more of a family based dojang with kids and adults training together.

I suppose my suggestion is to lower your expectations and keep and open mind when going in to speak with the owner. Make sure the place is somewhere you want to be and that they have a need and desire for someone like you before announcing your intentions. Once the instructors and students see what you can do they may come to you and ask if that is something you would be interested in.

Good luck

 

[skribs]

Not everyone is willing to turn over a class to someone they just met, regardless, of the rank they wear around their waist.

Why do I have to instantly be an instructor? Why, upon starting as an instructor, do I have to just have class turned over to me? He could start me out as a student in class until he gets to know my character. He could start me as an assistant instructor, who basically just watches and observes. He could introduce me as a guest instructor, and supervise my first few classes. He could do private lessons to get to know me.

There are a ton of options other than just "Hi, I'm Master X, you will be teaching on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7. Good luck." In fact, this would be the absolute worst idea anyone could do. You want to make sure someone from outside knows your way of doing things and knows your curriculum. If it's someone brought up inside, you want them to progress as an assistant before just turning over class to them.
You are technically correct that he shouldn't "turn over a class" to me upon meeting me for the first time. However, I don't see the relevance in my situation, as I'm not expecting to just have classes turned over to me.

I'll also repeat what I said back in post #12:
Why is there this assumption that I'm going to go in and grunt, "Me third dan. Me teach....No. Not student. Teacher. Me teach. Good teach. Other teacher suck. Me better. LET. ME. TEEEEEAAAAAACCHHHHH!!"

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'll also repeat what I said back in post #12:
Why is there this assumption that I'm going to go in and grunt, "Me third dan. Me teach....No. Not student. Teacher. Me teach. Good teach. Other teacher suck. Me better. LET. ME. TEEEEEAAAAAACCHHHHH!!"

I think it comes from this part of the initial post: You're dad talking with each master.

The first master responding: "I wouldn't know what class to put him in; and this school is like a family, how would the students think if I brought in someone outside the family?" and the second master responding: ""We can get him his 4th Dan and help him open a school in your town, since there aren't any Kukkiwon schools there."

We don't know (Unless I missed it , but I don't think you ever stated) what exactly the conversation your dad had with the two instructors. But both of those sentences don't make a huge amount of sense if you're dad didn't mention you wanting to teach there. For the first; why would a new student be anything different than another new student regardless of rank? It seems odd...but it seems much less odd if he was talking about "bringing in" someone the students aren't familiar with as a teacher, rather than a student.

For the second one, it would be presumptuous on the master's part to just state he's going to help you open a school, if your dad didn't initially state something about your own plans to teach/open a school. If he did, then that response also makes a lot more sense.

I'm not saying that's what he did or didn't say. But reading the OP again, it absolutely comes with the vibe that your dad had asked about you teaching when he went to scout out the schools.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Why do I have to instantly be an instructor? Why, upon starting as an instructor, do I have to just have class turned over to me? He could start me out as a student in class until he gets to know my character. He could start me as an assistant instructor, who basically just watches and observes. He could introduce me as a guest instructor, and supervise my first few classes. He could do private lessons to get to know me.

There are a ton of options other than just "Hi, I'm Master X, you will be teaching on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7. Good luck." In fact, this would be the absolute worst idea anyone could do. You want to make sure someone from outside knows your way of doing things and knows your curriculum. If it's someone brought up inside, you want them to progress as an assistant before just turning over class to them.
You are technically correct that he shouldn't "turn over a class" to me upon meeting me for the first time. However, I don't see the relevance in my situation, as I'm not expecting to just have classes turned over to me.

I'll also repeat what I said back in post #12:
Why is there this assumption that I'm going to go in and grunt, "Me third dan. Me teach....No. Not student. Teacher. Me teach. Good teach. Other teacher suck. Me better. LET. ME. TEEEEEAAAAAACCHHHHH!!"

Of all the things I said, you latched on to that. Fair enough. Good luck to you.