More No-Touch Knockouts.

[mtabone]

One's only limits, are the Boundaries set for oneself.


I am not a man. I am the Universe itself!-- Morihei Ueshiba


"Our worst fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure..." Nelson Mandela




Michael Tabone

 

[rmcrobertson]

Here's an idea. Let's put aside everything we've written so far. Let's skip over (for a moment) the idea that all this stuff is just what it looks like--fakery. Let's skip over the problems Mr. Dillman et al. have had with other teachers, and other organizations, in the art. Let's skip the notion that ya gots to try it vs. no, you really don't. Let's skip questions about suggestibility and hypnotism. Let's even skip over the worrying cultishness that some of this stuff implies.

Just as a thought-experiment, let's assume for a moment that it's all true. Let's assume that the no-touch stuff really works, that the videos just look fake because that's the limitations of video. Let's assume that the testimonials are really true---what's more, let's assume that the, "no-touch," stuff can be fairly-rapidly taught, which seems to be the claim. Let's assume, in brief, that the DKI is the berries.

So. What do we end up with? One suggestion comes out of a book I've been looking through lately, John Bracy and Liu Xing-Han's "Ba Gua: Hidden Knowledge in the Taoist Internal Martial Art." In sections titled, "What Happened to the Ancient Knowledge of Internal Energy," and, "The Arcane, Mysterious and Symbolic in Ba Gua Zhang," among other things, there's this: "The main objective...would be to unify with the primal forces (yuan) of the universe and restore the yuan qi, the "primordial qi," within...{the} body." (37).

OK. So---what's the purpose of the DKI's teaching all this no-touch stuff? Somehow I suspect the motives are a little less lofty--nothing wrong with that, I guess, since one of the complaints about a lot of American martial arts (especially American kenpo, mine own) is that they're a cheapening and commercialization of the real thing. Somehow, too, I suspect that there's none of this training for decades and decades involved--it's another short cut. Somehow--and I certainly recognize that lots of traditional martial artists were and are out to put food on the table--I smell money.

Perhaps all American martial arts do the same---less sweat, less time, less commitment--trading money for mastery. But I think that even if this stuff works--and leaving the thought-experiment behind, I don't think it works--what I don't like is the direct, clear, completely straightforward commercialization of something that is right near the heart of what the martial arts are all about, beyond plain vanilla self-defense.

In other words, I think what DKI represents is the intrusion of capitalism into even the spirituality of martial arts. Put another way, it's turning even the intangible aspect of the arts--qi, spirit, mind, heart, guts, whatever ya wanna call it--into something that can easily be bought and sold. No wonder that everything solid melts into air, when even the stuff I go to train for that is beyond self defense, physical fitness, seeing my friends, starts to become just another product to get stuck on the shelf and sold.

Thanks for the discussion; it's been interesting.

 

[KennethKu]

No one escapes the laws of physics, unless you are Superman, Batman, Spiderman etc.

How can you produce impact energy transfer w/o making contact? It simply cannot happen. Dillman is a fraud. There is a million US dollar for him, IF he can prove he can do it. Easy money for the taking. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu
I will say it again.....Dillman learned his nerve-point and kata interpretation material from Master Seiyu Oyata who did NOT authorize him to teach it. I know because I was there (Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine). Dillman's "light strike" knockouts are NOT anywhere close to Mr. Oyata's level of skill. By comparison, they are quite crude and heavy.

Mr. Oyata never had anything to do with "no-touch knockouts" because no such thing exists, or ever has. It's right up there with moving people from ten feet away. The only reality to it is that it makes a lot of money from people who are fooled by these charaltans.

I have been involved in the study of martial arts for better than four decades and I have watched the martial arts scene change over the years. These "no-touch knockouts" and "empty force" exhibitions are some of the worst prostitutions of martial arts that I've ever witnessed.

Listen to those who have gone before you and pay attention.

Thanks for the info.

 

[white belt]

A lot of really good intelligent posts, from a wide variety of backgrounds, on this string.

I don't take the NTKO thing seriously, as seen in my other posts. Now, lets pretend that a team of unbiased experts researched Mr. Dillman and he passed with flying colors. No Touch Energy from his hands is causing trauma enough to an individual's nervous system or brain to make them lose conciousness. Now how safe would that be? If I had a cell phone that knocked me out from excessive Electromagnetic emissions, would I keep putting the frickin' thing up to my ear and not be worried about tumors or cancer? Bottom line is Dillman himself claims he has not perfected this "technique". How then does he know that it isn't causing irreversable damage on his test subjects? 1) He is without concern for the health of his students and subscribers which would be immoral. 2) He isn't worried because he knows it is Bull***t. So, there you go. He is either potentially dangerous to his followers health and immoral or a charlatan and immoral. Boxers lose a little bit of brain function each time they are hit with a dazing shot let alone a KO! I thought his "contact" studies were interesting and now I see this poop. I vote charlatan.

white belt

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
To jazkiljok:

Well, I dunno. I looked up the quote you mentioned, and it's certainly there. It seems rather different to me--he doesn't claim to be teaching these KOs, certainly not in any quick fashion; the description involves moving on this guy quite physically at first--but then, it would. I will only add two things: a) the story appears in a context that certainly emphasizes the physical/psychological aspects of martial arts training--nothing too mystic there; b) as a teacher, I've never heard him try to put anything resembling this mysterious stuff across to students. He'll certainly discuss ki--but virtually all of that discussion revolves around stance-work, proper alignment, breathing, etc.

I can mention two things: once, for sure, he hit me with something truly weird. Not physical; can't really explain, and I'll skip the description of what it felt like. That was about two-three years ago, and I'm still skeptical and impressed. Why am I skeptical? Well, I've been training there going on ten years (yikes!), and beyond everything else, I just plain like the guy. So, while I could note that Mr. Tatum relaxed is a different thing altogether from Mr. Tatum feeling it's time to lay down some smackage on the likes of me--from time to time, you know, it's like mopping the floor. Just gotta wake the kids up, as well as the drifting intellectuals. And while I tend to associate this with something that isn't altogether physical or psychological--I recognize it as an aspect of transference, and I also tend to think that this is perfectly explicable.

Believe me, I'd be outta there if I smelled cult. Of course, it is interesting that anybody who trains martial arts exhibits a lot of cultish behavior...

And you know, even if there were something mysterious going on--and I believe my first post on this said as much--I'd only find it somewhat impressive. I'm a hell of a lot more impressed by Mr. Tatum's teaching ability, to tell you the truth--and I think that's a lot more important, and a lot more mysterious, than these silly no-touch knockouts.

So I don't know. I don't necessarily think that the projection of ki is impossible; I'm skeptical anyway--and I'm damn sure skeptical about anybody who claims to be teaching this stuff in under about forty years.

I have to say, too, that the stuff I've seen in clips is just plain silly-looking.

thanks for your response.

Your skepticism is well placed- one time in 10 years isn’t a great track record for chi projecting (unlike Dillman students who seem to have to take two steps back from his chi blasts every time he waves his hand to say hi… just kidding... i think...)

You kind of lost me on most of what you say- --you seem to be suggesting that no touch chi projection can be done if you SPEND MORE TIME at it?

it doesn't matter how many years you spend or how good a martial artist you are-- you ain't defying the laws of physics.

- in any case-- i guess i'm more adamant about my skepticism - i mean you really can't think of a few other reasons you might have felt "weird" that day?


Jaz K.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sure: I can think of lots of reasons to be skeptical.

However, the particular weird occasion I have in mind remains of interest to me because there wasn't anything special about the day, the event, the audience (there wasn't one), the context (I'd been dummying for another student during his lesson). And I might add this--I didn't get KO'd, or even "hit," in the usual sense.

Maybe it was a TIA on my part. But it was something utterly unique, in my experience.

I guess I'm not absolutely willing to rule out some weird applications by very talented people who have studied for a very long time. I just don't know for sure--though I suspect, IF there's anything to it, that we'll eventually uncover some quite physical laws in operation.

But I am pretty damn sure that this no-touch crap is really just crap. It sure looks that way in the video clips; the fact that you never seem to see anybody who isn't a student of these guys falling over is suspicious; the pompous way the practitioner acts before, during and after looks a lot more like faith healing ("LET the devils leave this woman! LET Satan depart! DEPART, I command!" with the dope slap to the forehead...) than anything else.

And I insist on two things: even if real, if you trot it out to show off all the time, it's just a parlor trick. Frankly, I know a 14-year-old student with CP who stood up straight and ran across the mat to get her last brown belt certificate (she started walking around 7) and I find that a hell of a lot more mysterious and wonderful. Ya wants chi? There it is, in a MEANINGFUL sense.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I will give him credit for being a master at marketing but that is about it.
There are guys in our association that blow “Georgie” out of the water when it comes to skill level…..they have studied with my teacher for 3 or more DECADES…….“Georgie” went to 6 seminars.

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, RyuShiKan, I was wondering even though GD only went to six seminars, do you think it may be possible that he may have researched other sources? Is it possible that the 6 seminars opened his eyes to what could be acheived and so he followed a different path?

On a second point, for the fans of Mr. Montague, he made claims in an Australian martial arts mag, in the 80's and 90's of having caused his senior student of feeling quite unwell, whilst exploring applications from forms. He stated something along the lines of, the movement is a quick waving motion with both hands directly in front of you. He said that he couldn't make sense of it as a self defense move until he did it about 6" in front of his student's body and his student became quite ill and nauseous. Maybe not a KO but to the sceptic, it should sound like the same "mumbo jumbo".

--Dave:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, RyuShiKan, I was wondering even though GD only went to six seminars, do you think it may be possible that he may have researched other sources? Is it possible that the 6 seminars opened his eyes to what could be acheived and so he followed a different path?

It could be possible but I am wondering from where.
Dillman claims some of his knowledge came from Hohan Soken……….a man he met 1 time. I doubt he learned a great deal in a meeting that lasted less than a day.
Also, this Hohan meeting took place before the 1984 Official Karate Magazine article where he comments on the tuite and kyusho that was done on him by my teacher….and says…..”it’s incredible, it’s like nothing I have ever seen before…..”
So by that statement it would seem he had never seen tuite or kyusho.
More likely he learned what little he knows from the 6 seminars & 12 tapes on kata and bunkai my teacher had for sale.

 

[yilisifu]

At the first seminar which Dillman attended (one of Master Oyata's seminars), Dillman didn't sweat one drop...he ran around all day with a tape recorder and a notebook. We pointed that out to Mr. Oyata who wasn't very impressed with Dillman's lack of enthusiasm for sweating into his socks.

Dillman met Hohan Soken once. He also claims to have trained under Soken's hier, Fuji Kise. However, in Okinawa it is understood that Kise doesn't care for Americans and won't teach them the real thing.

So much for Dillman's claim to fame. He's always been a showboat; I remember him "training" Muhammed Ali and claiming that it was his training that enabled Ali to win his biggest fight in those days. Dillman even went so far as to wrestle bears (!) to show off his great karate skills....of course, this bear wasn't wild; it was a trained bear used in circus shows....But I think they both have the same kind of ambition; put on a nice circus show and enjoy the fruits of your labor. The bear gets fresh fish while Dillman pads his wallet. Both smell the same.

 

[Astra]

This seems like more McDojo BS to me.
As much as I think this is fake, I have to point out one thing:
The argument of "limiting to laws pf physics" is weak - our current laws are incomplete and even incorrect during certain conditions.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Astra
This seems like more McDojo BS to me.
As much as I think this is fake, I have to point out one thing:
The argument of "limiting to laws pf physics" is weak - our current laws are incomplete and even incorrect during certain conditions.

If you think you can defy the laws of physics, there is a US$1 million for you. Talk is cheap. There is US$ 1 million of prize waiting to be claimed. Go for it.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

 

[arnisador]

The Amazing Randi is taking heat from the Yellow Bamboo folks on rma.

Mr. Dillman always talks about his research. He is actively trying to improve his understanding and knowledge. The no-touch KOs are an aspect of this, apparently--a dead end, I suspect, but research is like that. I've certainly published "Nope, this won't work, but we had to try it" articles and technical reports before.

Mr. Montague is another person who has made extreme claims about his chi-related abilities, I believe.

 

[kang]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Dillman is a fraud.

say that to his face if you are so brave, and see how long you remain upright and coherent.

 

[white belt]

Arnisador,

Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties? Sheesh! All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO. Can you educate me a bit on this? I know he has pulled parlor tricks for amusement and later told people the way he did it. E tu Erle?

white belt

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by mtabone
One's only limits, are the Boundaries set for oneself.


I am not a man. I am the Universe itself!-- Morihei Ueshiba


"Our worst fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure..." Nelson Mandela




Michael Tabone

"Of course I was born in a hospital,....I wanted to be close to me Mother when it happened!"-----Curly, of the 3 Stooges.

"We'll call it a draw!"-----The Black Knight, at the end of his famous duel with King Arthur, in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

"Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better!"-----Cheif Inspector Dreyfuss from The Return of The Pink Panther. He was in a MENTAL INSTITUTION when saying this. Sounds like somebody practicing NTKO Ki Gong in a mirror to me.

white belt

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by white belt
Arnisador,

Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties? Sheesh! All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO. Can you educate me a bit on this?

It's possible that I am misremembering. Let me dig around.

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by PAUL
whitebelt: Dude, I know that you were kidding (or at least I was hoping you were kidding!)

Paul,

My apologies! Looks like the joke's on me! The way this thread is going, it's hard to tell who is serious. Hey, would you be interested in becoming an inner door disciple of "Brick Do" (c)?


white belt

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kang

Originally posted by KennethKu
Dillman is a fraud.

say that to his face if you are so brave, and see how long you remain upright and coherent.

I know some folks that have.........nothing happend to them.

 

[mtabone]

White Belt,

Reason why I say the above quotes, is ANYTHING is possible. And of course the McDojo/McDojangs, fakes, frauds, etc. are out there,
why not just punch and kick?


Don't Mind what you others do, mind what you do.


Michael Tabone