More No-Touch Knockouts.

[white belt]

MTabone,

I agree that what is possible, man has not yet fully conceived. I just draw the line with this subject. My quotes are just a balance to your more intelligent quotes. They basically voice my attitude toward "Invisible Chop, Chop!". My quotes also reveal I am not above "Self Defecating Humor". (I hope!). I have enough
people, who are religious, question whether or not I am into the "occult" just because I teach an Oriental Martial Art. Yes, I am serious. I don't need George Dillman running around "afixin' to hex" the decent folk. That kind of publicity damages all legitimate systems. There are people I have convinced that now know I am not into mysticism. What if Dillman became more well known among the uninitiated? My ability to take away some naive people's fears would then be hampered. There are many more reasons, in this thread why it just isn't healthy for the Martial Arts in general. If anybody thinks I am out of line, I can take my lumps like a man.

Thanks,
white belt

 

[yilisifu]

Actually, Astra is correct. Several of the "laws" of physics have been rewritten several times...some during my lifetime (I'm dating myself here). But none have been altogether reversed which is what Dillman's "touchie no feelie" knockout would require.

The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles. Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven. Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....
And since things like Love cannot be scientifically proven, I guess he doesn't believe in that, either. It's easy to poopoo everything when you shut your senses off to the reality around you.

As for the youngster who dares anyone to tell Dillman to his face that he's a fraud.....I would happily do that if he ever holds a seminar anywhere near me. I'm not about to spend my own money to travel to some far off seminar so I can tell a fraud what I think of him.....
The fact is, White Belt, I WAS THERE in living color when Dillman ran around with his notebook and tape recorder at his first Oyata seminar. I SAW what he did. And what he didn't do.

He didn't train for a second. He didn't sweat at all. But he got lots of photos with him and Oyata together.

He's not had the cajones to face Oyata since he started doing seminars and writing books himself. He's scared to death of Oyata as well he should be.

I have no time for people like this. They are not martial artists. They're charlatans, plain and simple.

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Actually, Astra is correct. Several of the "laws" of physics have been rewritten several times...some during my lifetime (I'm dating myself here). But none have been altogether reversed which is what Dillman's "touchie no feelie" knockout would require.

The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles. Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven. Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....
And since things like Love cannot be scientifically proven, I guess he doesn't believe in that, either. It's easy to poopoo everything when you shut your senses off to the reality around you.

As for the youngster who dares anyone to tell Dillman to his face that he's a fraud.....I would happily do that if he ever holds a seminar anywhere near me. I'm not about to spend my own money to travel to some far off seminar so I can tell a fraud what I think of him.....
The fact is, White Belt, I WAS THERE in living color when Dillman ran around with his notebook and tape recorder at his first Oyata seminar. I SAW what he did. And what he didn't do.

He didn't train for a second. He didn't sweat at all. But he got lots of photos with him and Oyata together.

He's not had the cajones to face Oyata since he started doing seminars and writing books himself. He's scared to death of Oyata as well he should be.

I have no time for people like this. They are not martial artists. They're charlatans, plain and simple.

Yilisifu,

I, white belt, DON'T SUPPORT DILLMAN! I think you meant to direct your comments to another(?). This is a perfect example of what I mentioned in my last post. I am being lumped in with a Dillman NTKO supporter by mistake. I hate it when that happens! Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you. I study Ushomi style.

Good post by the way,
white belt

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by white belt
Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you. I study Ushomi style.

How odd.......I am from Missouri too........There really is somthing to that quote on the license plates there.

"Missouri ....the show me state"

 

[white belt]

The UshomiKan is in Kansas City. It is headed by the prestigious GM Mendula Oblongota. If GD NTKOs there, I will take up firing "Blanks" with Tae Bo and passing the guard with Richard Simmons.


white belt

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by white belt
The UshomiKan is in Kansas City. It is headed by the prestigious GM Mendula Oblongota. If GD NTKOs there, I will take up firing "Blanks" with Tae Bo and passing the guard with Richard Simmons.


white belt

:rofl:

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by yilisifu
The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles. Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven. Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....

Bear in mind that the main reason the Amazing Randi sets up the experiments rather than relying on the scientists is because he himself is a trained magician and knows all of the sleight-of-hand and misdirection tricks used by those he debunks. No matter how smart or educated a scientist is, he/she will still fall for a skilled sleight-of-hand trick if he/she were not skilled in that area.

Cthulhu

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by white belt
Arnisador,

Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties? Sheesh! All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO. Can you educate me a bit on this? I know he has pulled parlor tricks for amusement and later told people the way he did it. E tu Erle?

white belt

I originally posted this on page 7 in a message to RyuShiKan, it seems somehow appropriate to repost it here....

On a second point, for the fans of Mr. Montague, he made claims in an Australian martial arts mag, in the 80's and 90's of having caused his senior student of feeling quite unwell, whilst exploring applications from forms. He stated something along the lines of, the movement is a quick waving motion with both hands directly in front of you. He said that he couldn't make sense of it as a self defense move until he did it about 6" in front of his student's body and his student became quite ill and nauseous. Maybe not a KO but to the sceptic, it should sound like the same "mumbo jumbo".


I have just moved house, so it will take me a while to find the issue in question, but if anyone wants details, I will endeavour to dig it out.

I would like to make it clear that I am neither poo pooing, nor defending either of these guys but I am prepared to question their yea and naysayers equally.
As for me, I have doubts which will stay with me until I have felt it myself. However I am not prepared to say it can't be done, as there is so much in this world that can't be explained, and I have seen some pretty wierd stuff myself.
Another point that seems to have been overlooked, is the fact that EM makes claims on one of those earlier links that he was the first to use acupuncture points ie. St9 instead of 'the side of the neck', so if this is true the he is the one responsible for the "colour by numbers kyoshu" and not GD.
Just some more points to ponder I guess....

--Dave


:asian:

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by arnisador
An article in the second U.S. issue of Budo International magazine, which appears to exist principally to feature articles on people selling videos in the same issue, discusses Evan Pantazi and his no-touch knockouts. He is a DKI student and is selling a tape on KOs. The article is very positive about the no-touch KOs.

I'm not going to read all of the posts just tell you what I know. No touch knockouts can be performed but don't always work. My instructor has performed them before but they have no application in self defence (maybe just in chi development). George Dillman does them but he did try to knock out Benny the Jet once to no avail. George said that Benny had a strong mind but Benny said he really wanted to feel it and was not trying to block anything and that he didn't even feel a thing. Who knows why someone would want to make a video on them. Sounds a but silly to me.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[lhommedieu]

I have the greatest respect for Randi; his expose of Philippine “psychic surgeons,” to give just one example from so many others, provides a valuable service insofar as it shows how easily charlatans can manipulate vulnerable people for money. However, there are scores of traditional martial artists and healers who don’t perform parlor tricks and don’t rip people off with slight-of-hand - and yet subscribe to beliefs that are pre-scientific. There are scores of beliefs that are unscientific as well, e.g., the belief in God or that love is a necessary component of a sucessful marriage. What we are really talking about here is the incommensurability of cultural concepts. I’ve been knocked out while boxing and knocked down doing Chinese internal arts; both resulted in “horizontal meditation” and both would explain the “why” of what happened in metaphors that are incommensurate with each other. I’ve also treated back pain with Motrin, on the one hand, and have gotten incredible results through a combination of acupuncture, craniosacral therapy, bonesetting, and Chinese herbs. The ontological foundations of each approach are entirely different, as are the languages used to describe them. And to argue that one worked because it was based on Western science and other merely because of the placebo effect is very questionable, in my opinion: acute, spasmodic back pain usually doesn’t respond to sugar pills of any variety.

Western science is a wonderful thing. If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated I’d head for the nearest specialist. On the other hand, I’ve seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience – a healthy dose of skepticism about what the “experts” say is just as warranted as any other kind.

With respect to Chinese medicine, consider the following:

Eisenberg, D. Encounters With Qi: Exploring Chinese Medicine
Rose, K. et. al. A Brief History of Qi
Kleinman, A. Writing at the Margin: Discourse Between Anthropology and Medicine

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[white belt]

D. Cobb,

Any verifiable info. is appreciated. Some Martial Artists are a mixture of legitimate knowledge and make believe. It is a travesty to mix the two and go public.

white belt

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by white belt
D. Cobb,

Any verifiable info. is appreciated. Some Martial Artists are a mixture of legitimate knowledge and make believe. It is a travesty to mix the two and go public.

white belt

No worries, if I don't find it before this thread closes, I will dig it out and post a copy in a new thread. It may take a while though... we've been here a few weeks already, but it seems that the more we unpack, the more there is to unpack!
--Dave

 

[chufeng]

White belt posted:
" Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you"

Actually, YiLiSifu lives in Iowa...

Born in Washington state...and the son of an Army officer, he's lived in many places...he might have spent some time in Ft. Leonard Wood, Mo. ... but that would have been many years ago.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
I

Western science is a wonderful thing. If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated I’d head for the nearest specialist. On the other hand, I’ve seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience – a healthy dose of skepticism about what the “experts” say is just as warranted as any other kind.

the one area that tcm has most western doctors interested in is its success with managing and relieving pain.

in western medicine pain is one of the least understood areas of how the human body functions- or so i've read once said by the head of the pain center at UCLA.

peace:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by mtabone

Don't Mind what you others do, mind what you do.

Charlatans must not be allowed to fleece the students. Why even bother to learn MA if you are not willing to stand up for what is right? Why even bother to be a human being?

 

[yilisifu]

Sorry, White Belt! I must have had you kung-fuzed with someone else! :rofl:

Actually, I live very close to the Missouri border........

 

[bob919]

its just amyth like god

 

[mtabone]

bob919,

Just out to cause trouble ah?

 

[white belt]

Faithful Subscribers,

At this juncture, I must point out that the Ushomikan Martial Art Temple, in Kansas City, Missouri, is not affilated in any way, shape or form with the Ushomi Atheistic Society, in Hannibal, Mo., of which Bob919 is a charter member. We constantly get their hate mail and hopefully someday it will stop!

That being said, good luck Bob 919 and have a nice day.

There have been some reports that the NTKO concept was started by one phrase at a private seminar. "Don't touch me there!". After which there was much waving of hands! And thus an industry was born.

white belt

 

[white belt]

NOTICE:

The hazing of new members at the Ushomi Aetheistic Society has reached a NEW LOW. Apparently there have been reports of "prospects" wearing Turbans with fake beards and tunics that run through the local Baptist Churches firing cap guns in the air. If someone reading this post really does know the dreaded "NO TOUCH KNOCK OUT" we might have a "job" for you. Please contact the Ushomikan Martial Art Temple in Kansas City, Mo. ASAP. We are an equal opportunity employer.

white belt