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RyuShiKan
Guest
The catch is you probably don't get to hit back......
More No-Touch Knockouts.
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
The catch is you probably don't get to hit back......
M
Mike Clarke
Guest
You know there are a lot of young men and women going to put their lives on the line starting next month.
I can't help but wonder why Mr. Dillman and his master instructors didn't volunteer to go over and 'zap' Iraq's armed forces [without touching them of course].
I can only put it down to them not being DKI members ?
Hey, did I ever tell you guys about the time I was flying over Moscow in the craft I'd stolen from area 51 ?
Whoops, sorry, I'm getting my fairy stories mixed up here.
And by the way,,,,,, The Dead Zone, it's only a t.v. show, isn't it ?
Can't wait to read the reports if anyone gets to the seminar?
Mike.
I can't help but wonder why Mr. Dillman and his master instructors didn't volunteer to go over and 'zap' Iraq's armed forces [without touching them of course].
I can only put it down to them not being DKI members ?
Hey, did I ever tell you guys about the time I was flying over Moscow in the craft I'd stolen from area 51 ?
Whoops, sorry, I'm getting my fairy stories mixed up here.
And by the way,,,,,, The Dead Zone, it's only a t.v. show, isn't it ?
Can't wait to read the reports if anyone gets to the seminar?
Mike.
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RyuShiKan
Guest
If you do hear anything the "spin doctors" will working hard afterwards on damge control on why it didn't work on so and so.
Like the planets weren't in the right alignment or the sun was in my eyes......etc.etc.
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RyuShiKan
Guest
Was that the invisble one? Or the one with the lights that look like the LA skyline?
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Kirk
Guest
There's no way to say this, DKI Girl without it sounding
disrespectful. But I've probably read every single one of your
posts. And I don't recall you ever saying "Yes, Mr Dillman CAN
render you unconscious without touching you". Do you even
believe it yourself? You always skirt the subject by saying
"his abilities", or "what he can do" and so on. Does Mr Dillman
have a set ranking set where you get to start working on NTKO's?
How far have YOU gotten?
disrespectful. But I've probably read every single one of your
posts. And I don't recall you ever saying "Yes, Mr Dillman CAN
render you unconscious without touching you". Do you even
believe it yourself? You always skirt the subject by saying
"his abilities", or "what he can do" and so on. Does Mr Dillman
have a set ranking set where you get to start working on NTKO's?
How far have YOU gotten?
white belt
Brown Belt
"Rigor Mortis" is when the human body hardens after death. Hence, the term "stiff" for a dead body. It's the hardest energy manipulation known to the human body and it only happens to a person once. Usually not by choice. IT'S A JOKE! Warped American humor is all.
As far as DKI stuff goes, check out Earl Montaigue's review. I believe you can find it under the key words "Dillman/Montaigue" with a decent search engine. Earl is a Tai Chi man from Australia who has researched pressure points quite a bit himself. He credits Dillman KO's to Dillman being a rather stout, strong individual who overly depends on the Carotid Sinus. Earl was curious like many of you and donated his body to a seminar to see what the program was all about. See if someone can find the review and post it. It is revealing and coming from an unbiased perspective.
DKI Girl, I picked up one of Mr. Dillman's books and it is very informative concerning an interpretation of kata. His interpretation. Using physical contact. When people start talking about "Empty Force" and being able to do it, they are severely jeapordizing their future credibility about anything they say or do. Stick to DKI's practical methods and don't waste your time defending NTKO's. It will fade away wth time.
white belt
As far as DKI stuff goes, check out Earl Montaigue's review. I believe you can find it under the key words "Dillman/Montaigue" with a decent search engine. Earl is a Tai Chi man from Australia who has researched pressure points quite a bit himself. He credits Dillman KO's to Dillman being a rather stout, strong individual who overly depends on the Carotid Sinus. Earl was curious like many of you and donated his body to a seminar to see what the program was all about. See if someone can find the review and post it. It is revealing and coming from an unbiased perspective.
DKI Girl, I picked up one of Mr. Dillman's books and it is very informative concerning an interpretation of kata. His interpretation. Using physical contact. When people start talking about "Empty Force" and being able to do it, they are severely jeapordizing their future credibility about anything they say or do. Stick to DKI's practical methods and don't waste your time defending NTKO's. It will fade away wth time.
white belt
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TkdWarrior
Guest
http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/dillman_and_me.htm for Erle Montague's site... u can get that story about dillman n him there.
but there Dillman n Erle talks about Pressure point not Empty force if i remember rite... n there's other article about Empty force on the very same site, http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm
lol about Rigor mortis, but wat i talked abut qi gong methods they do exists...
-TkdWarrior-
but there Dillman n Erle talks about Pressure point not Empty force if i remember rite... n there's other article about Empty force on the very same site, http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm
lol about Rigor mortis, but wat i talked abut qi gong methods they do exists...
-TkdWarrior-
white belt
Brown Belt
TKD Warrior,
Thanks for the help by bringing up that website. There is valid Qi Gong for health. I realize that. I chastise the "Out of body QI" proponents. This BS needs to stop. It tarnishes people's conceptions of the term "Martial Art". That helps no one on this forum. It may actually turn a needy person away, from a solution for poor health, because they see this nonsense first. To me that borders on being criminal.
white belt
Thanks for the help by bringing up that website. There is valid Qi Gong for health. I realize that. I chastise the "Out of body QI" proponents. This BS needs to stop. It tarnishes people's conceptions of the term "Martial Art". That helps no one on this forum. It may actually turn a needy person away, from a solution for poor health, because they see this nonsense first. To me that borders on being criminal.
white belt
white belt
Brown Belt
I went into the "Earl M." sites posted to refresh my memory. They are wonderful and well explained. I wish I could train with this man here at home. The circus tricks/empty force subject is handled very well.
DKI Girl, click on the attachments in TKDWarriors post and read. Earl's a pretty nice guy and he is knowledgeable.
white belt
DKI Girl, click on the attachments in TKDWarriors post and read. Earl's a pretty nice guy and he is knowledgeable.
white belt
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DKI Girl
Guest
Hi Kirk....Yes I have seen him do it many times.....but everyone bashes so hard on DKI that it's almost not worth it to come here anymore.
I came to this forum to meet new martial artists who were intelligent, interesting, and interested in learning new things. So far very few people here have even been polite to me. It really makes me wonder where the martial arts is going when everyone talks crap and puts everyone else down because they are doing something different or something you don't believe can be done.
I always travel to other states to attend different seminars, whether they are arnis, small circle jujitsu, or other styles just to continue my learning. And all I hear from people is: "When they come to my home town, then I will go."
It just makes me sad to see the state of instructors out there being so closed minded about new ideas.
NO ONE in DKI has ever said that some of the techniques we are working on right now are combat effective!! It's like starting out at white belt and sparring with a black belt getting your butt kicked. It takes time to build the techniques and figure out how they work for you.
And yes, I have worked on the no touch stuff myself....I have had some results with different people but it is not consistent at all and it takes me along time to do it, so I continue to practice along with all the rest of my katas and techniques.
dki girl
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Kirk
Guest
I'm sorry to hear that, but I can't argue with you either. I've
witnessed what you're talking about, and if I were in your shoes,
I'd feel the same way.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!
:asian:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Ms. DKI Girl:
I don't believe it for a second.
With that said--and I'm not trying to be impolite, only stating my basic opposition up front--I have a couple of questions.
First: what's the theory behind these "no-touch," KOs? Why would they work? what exactly is the practitioner supposed to be doing, have you been taught?
Second: the clips I've seen all show obvious fakery. The attacker's clearly on the way down even before the "no touch," guy does anything--are there other clips?
Third: how do you train this, exactly? and how long does it take? I get the impression--could be totally wrong, of course--that you haven't trained all that long. So if you're getting intermittent results, that's pretty impressive--but everything I've ever read about "no touch," stuff back in its home, China, associates the ability with extreme seniority (like being 90) and a lifetime of work. So how come the short-cuts? If they work, why train anything else?
Fourth: has this ever been tested objectively--by which I mean, has anybody studied these KOs against attackers who AREN'T members of the club, who ARE skeptical, who DO know how to attack?
Fifth: how would you respond to either a) the idea that these are indeed circus tricks, stuff you see all over China which gets done as part of a street performance (like the unbendable arm, the spear in the throat, etc.) done for money, or b) the old Buddhist criticism that says such tricks are relatively easy, and a complete distraction from the real point (something I might apply to more-believable martial arts stuff, by the way)?
Sixth: where did Mr. Corn train, how long, and how? Sorry I'm not writing, "Master," but I simply refuse--and claims about "mastery," of no-touch KOs are exactly the sort of thing that're the reason why.
I'm apologetic if I've been ill-mannered. To me, the real problem isn't stuff like no-touch--it's all the folks in martial arts who make claims based on illusions.
I was thinking about this while watching the newish, "Harry Potter," flick. During the confrontation between Lucius Malfoy, senior and Mr. Weasley, I was speculating on how ol' Lucius would handle, say, "Triggered Salute," delivered while he was still blustering and trying to get his little wand out--and, incidentally, I thought Professor Snape had just the right attitude to sparring. Little talk, much ka-blam.
I don't believe it for a second.
With that said--and I'm not trying to be impolite, only stating my basic opposition up front--I have a couple of questions.
First: what's the theory behind these "no-touch," KOs? Why would they work? what exactly is the practitioner supposed to be doing, have you been taught?
Second: the clips I've seen all show obvious fakery. The attacker's clearly on the way down even before the "no touch," guy does anything--are there other clips?
Third: how do you train this, exactly? and how long does it take? I get the impression--could be totally wrong, of course--that you haven't trained all that long. So if you're getting intermittent results, that's pretty impressive--but everything I've ever read about "no touch," stuff back in its home, China, associates the ability with extreme seniority (like being 90) and a lifetime of work. So how come the short-cuts? If they work, why train anything else?
Fourth: has this ever been tested objectively--by which I mean, has anybody studied these KOs against attackers who AREN'T members of the club, who ARE skeptical, who DO know how to attack?
Fifth: how would you respond to either a) the idea that these are indeed circus tricks, stuff you see all over China which gets done as part of a street performance (like the unbendable arm, the spear in the throat, etc.) done for money, or b) the old Buddhist criticism that says such tricks are relatively easy, and a complete distraction from the real point (something I might apply to more-believable martial arts stuff, by the way)?
Sixth: where did Mr. Corn train, how long, and how? Sorry I'm not writing, "Master," but I simply refuse--and claims about "mastery," of no-touch KOs are exactly the sort of thing that're the reason why.
I'm apologetic if I've been ill-mannered. To me, the real problem isn't stuff like no-touch--it's all the folks in martial arts who make claims based on illusions.
I was thinking about this while watching the newish, "Harry Potter," flick. During the confrontation between Lucius Malfoy, senior and Mr. Weasley, I was speculating on how ol' Lucius would handle, say, "Triggered Salute," delivered while he was still blustering and trying to get his little wand out--and, incidentally, I thought Professor Snape had just the right attitude to sparring. Little talk, much ka-blam.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
This is an exact description of me on the toilet every morning. Anyone within 10 feet is knocked out! And I'm sure if I hold it in for too long, nausea, blindness, and other abnormalities will definatily occur. And yes, I will attest to my "DOOK-EE-Gong" in a moneyback garuntee seminar.
:lol:
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
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rmcrobertson
Guest
So I got off my proverbial tail, and looked up both Mr. Corn and the no-touches on the websites marked in DKI Girl's Profile....his credentials are fairly impressive.
And I also took a peek at a number of the video clips. I realize that you can't see this sort of stuff on video, but they're just as obvious fakes as anything else I've seen. In a couple of cases, the guys who are supposedly, "KO'd," are continuing to move in a purposeful fashion (check their arms!) while supposedly, "out."
Clearly, the pressure points are real. I might note, though, that my understanding is that they need to be, "activated," and I ain't seeing much activation going on here. And the techs are real, working off perfectly ordinary (whatever that means) physical and physiological laws--though I might add that from a kenpo guy's viewpoint, the effect of the strikes does not look realistic at all. And since there are no checks whatsoever, the no-touch stuff had darn well better work.
And it is very clear on the tapes that the knockee is cooperating in the sense that they are simply standing there to get knocked. This raises some suspicions about further cooperation, I'm afraid.
I return to my comment about Lucius Malfoy. If I'm stupid enough to let somebody in range who's really trying to knock me out, well, I ain't just standing there. Sweep my lead leg against the joint, striking hard into the shin, as on one of the clips? Oh, hell, no. Triggered Salute looks good for that issue.
Sorry to be so skeptical. I know ki is real in an ordinary sense--correct body alignment, the synchronization of breath with movement, the driving of the body with the mind beyond what the body wants to do. I know there's a psychological aspect to ki--intimidation, good days/bad days, moving with confidence and authority rather than timidly. I suspect that there's also a non-physical and un-ordinary aspect to ki, since I've sure as hell felt something real odd a couple of times. I've no idea about what some little guy who's been studying most of a lifetime can do, but I bet there are none of these guys running around giving seminars.
But this stuff...nope. It's quackery. Nor am I going to the seminars. I realize that may seem closed-minded, but I think of it this way: "Never keep your mind so open that your brain falls out."
And I also took a peek at a number of the video clips. I realize that you can't see this sort of stuff on video, but they're just as obvious fakes as anything else I've seen. In a couple of cases, the guys who are supposedly, "KO'd," are continuing to move in a purposeful fashion (check their arms!) while supposedly, "out."
Clearly, the pressure points are real. I might note, though, that my understanding is that they need to be, "activated," and I ain't seeing much activation going on here. And the techs are real, working off perfectly ordinary (whatever that means) physical and physiological laws--though I might add that from a kenpo guy's viewpoint, the effect of the strikes does not look realistic at all. And since there are no checks whatsoever, the no-touch stuff had darn well better work.
And it is very clear on the tapes that the knockee is cooperating in the sense that they are simply standing there to get knocked. This raises some suspicions about further cooperation, I'm afraid.
I return to my comment about Lucius Malfoy. If I'm stupid enough to let somebody in range who's really trying to knock me out, well, I ain't just standing there. Sweep my lead leg against the joint, striking hard into the shin, as on one of the clips? Oh, hell, no. Triggered Salute looks good for that issue.
Sorry to be so skeptical. I know ki is real in an ordinary sense--correct body alignment, the synchronization of breath with movement, the driving of the body with the mind beyond what the body wants to do. I know there's a psychological aspect to ki--intimidation, good days/bad days, moving with confidence and authority rather than timidly. I suspect that there's also a non-physical and un-ordinary aspect to ki, since I've sure as hell felt something real odd a couple of times. I've no idea about what some little guy who's been studying most of a lifetime can do, but I bet there are none of these guys running around giving seminars.
But this stuff...nope. It's quackery. Nor am I going to the seminars. I realize that may seem closed-minded, but I think of it this way: "Never keep your mind so open that your brain falls out."
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I actually do not know enough on Dillman's NTKO stuff to comment.
I can say that although I have never practiced DKI, there are a lot of credible people who do, or at least have in the past. If you like the system, then good for you.
Pesonally, If there is ever a seminar in Michigan that you know of for DKI NTKO, could you please e-mail me on this forum and let me know. I'm a total skeptic, but I would be willing to try almost anything at least once, especially if there is a $$-back gaurantee of some sort.
In terms of trying to research something new, anything is possible, and anyone will catch flak for trying out something new. I just hope that the DKI community is being as honest and truthful about their research as possible for the sake of their own credibility.
Also, one last thing. Please keep in mind that most people, myself included, have experienced more B.S. in terms of qi-gong and internal energy then truthfulness. We not only have the right to be skeptical, but we should be. There are too many con-artists out there monopolizing off of the concept.
rmcrobertson: Hey, I understand your standpoint and your fustrations. I am a skeptic myself. But if you don't mind me politely critiqueing you, I think your being a little bit harsh towards the subject considering that (as it appears) you (like myself) have had little to no direct experience with the DKI NTKO people to be so adamently oppossed.
Respectfully,
PAUL:asian:
I can say that although I have never practiced DKI, there are a lot of credible people who do, or at least have in the past. If you like the system, then good for you.
Pesonally, If there is ever a seminar in Michigan that you know of for DKI NTKO, could you please e-mail me on this forum and let me know. I'm a total skeptic, but I would be willing to try almost anything at least once, especially if there is a $$-back gaurantee of some sort.
In terms of trying to research something new, anything is possible, and anyone will catch flak for trying out something new. I just hope that the DKI community is being as honest and truthful about their research as possible for the sake of their own credibility.
Also, one last thing. Please keep in mind that most people, myself included, have experienced more B.S. in terms of qi-gong and internal energy then truthfulness. We not only have the right to be skeptical, but we should be. There are too many con-artists out there monopolizing off of the concept.
rmcrobertson: Hey, I understand your standpoint and your fustrations. I am a skeptic myself. But if you don't mind me politely critiqueing you, I think your being a little bit harsh towards the subject considering that (as it appears) you (like myself) have had little to no direct experience with the DKI NTKO people to be so adamently oppossed.
Respectfully,
PAUL:asian:
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I am actually interested in some of the "freaky" stuff that you've seen with qigong. I'm interested in other experiences as well, for mine are limited.
Keep your eyes peeled, because this is worth a new thread. I think I will start one!
I'd like to hear some truthful answers from everyone, no B.S.!
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Of course I don't mind a polite critique or two--just not used to them, on forums.
I agree, probably too much. Tend to be wordy.
However, ya gots to draw a line about what you'll try. I also haven't tried faith healing, chiropractic to cure diabetes, therapeutic touch, past-life regression therapy, the teachings of Seth, astrology...ya gets the idea.
But I take this stuff a little seriously, because it suggests how superstitions and misplaced religious longings and psychological frailties can get the best of us. I'd relate it to other things that are a lot less harmless--but I think I'll spare us all the list there.
I do think this stuff has to be strongly opposed in the martial arts. First, it encourages a lot of fakery, and taking advantage of students. Second, it encourages students to believe they have abilities they don't have (kind of like tae-bo), which is going to be bad in the event that, ahura-mazda forbid, they actually have to employ what they've studied for so long. Third, it dovetails with a lot of the BS in the martial arts that we all know about, but keep falling for--in our own practice as well as in other dojos and other styles.
And last, I just can't stand this pseudo-science and pseudo-mastery of the Mysterious Oriental Arts.
Oh well. Big deal. See, I told you--wordy.
Anyway, thanks--I'm avoiding finishing up paperwork from last semester...
I agree, probably too much. Tend to be wordy.
However, ya gots to draw a line about what you'll try. I also haven't tried faith healing, chiropractic to cure diabetes, therapeutic touch, past-life regression therapy, the teachings of Seth, astrology...ya gets the idea.
But I take this stuff a little seriously, because it suggests how superstitions and misplaced religious longings and psychological frailties can get the best of us. I'd relate it to other things that are a lot less harmless--but I think I'll spare us all the list there.
I do think this stuff has to be strongly opposed in the martial arts. First, it encourages a lot of fakery, and taking advantage of students. Second, it encourages students to believe they have abilities they don't have (kind of like tae-bo), which is going to be bad in the event that, ahura-mazda forbid, they actually have to employ what they've studied for so long. Third, it dovetails with a lot of the BS in the martial arts that we all know about, but keep falling for--in our own practice as well as in other dojos and other styles.
And last, I just can't stand this pseudo-science and pseudo-mastery of the Mysterious Oriental Arts.
Oh well. Big deal. See, I told you--wordy.
Anyway, thanks--I'm avoiding finishing up paperwork from last semester...
white belt
Brown Belt
Paul,
The "KIMCHI GONG" STORY WAS A PARODY!! It was aimed at NTKOs!! It was a joke!
"We Sock Kim" as in we PUNCH Kim! Kimchi is an Oriental side dish served in restaurants made from CABBAGE! IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE EXTREME FLATULENCE IN LARGE QUANTITIES! Go back and read the post. I was joking! Nobody else thought I was serious.....right?
Holy crap!
white belt
The "KIMCHI GONG" STORY WAS A PARODY!! It was aimed at NTKOs!! It was a joke!
"We Sock Kim" as in we PUNCH Kim! Kimchi is an Oriental side dish served in restaurants made from CABBAGE! IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE EXTREME FLATULENCE IN LARGE QUANTITIES!
Go back and read the post. I was joking! Nobody else thought I was serious.....right?Holy crap!
white belt
OP
- Thread Starter
- #39
Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.
Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.
The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. Frankly, most of it is not even pressure point stuff as much as grappling techniques hidden in the kata. Also, DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.
There's good stuff in DKI, and it exposes people to some great ideas. That's why I think it's a shame about the no-touch KOs--they are keeping peopel from seeing the good in the DKI system.
I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.
Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.
The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. Frankly, most of it is not even pressure point stuff as much as grappling techniques hidden in the kata. Also, DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.
There's good stuff in DKI, and it exposes people to some great ideas. That's why I think it's a shame about the no-touch KOs--they are keeping peopel from seeing the good in the DKI system.
I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.
absolutely agree with with you as well- butI hope you don't take offense if i ask you about Larry Tatum, who if i'm not mistaken is your teacher in American Kenpo. He makes rather supiciously similar claims of "extraordinary powers" in the AK book called the Journey- in this he tells a story of how far he's developed his chi and cites a story of knocking some big bruiser down without touching him and that it was his "force field" that hit the guy.
in the context of his chapter- i didn't take it as a joke (was it?)
just want to know how you reconcile your rational viewpoints, which i fully agree with your own teachers experience on the topic and if you've ever discussed this with him?
thanks
:asian:
