More Belt Colors? WHY???

[Hand Sword]

Why? Why gi's with sparkles? Capes? Bright colors? etc... Just to be different and have your own style. Maybe for open tournament competition. It's just further commercialization, where everyone gets to tailor everything to their likes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is the idea, but by introducing so many additional belts, the sytem is pandering to instant gratification and the need for trophies...

Are they? Do we as students go in looking to have more belts? I've never heard any student in 34 years actually ask for another belt.

If I recall, taekwondo originally only had five belts: white>green>blue>red>black.

That meant only three belts between white and black. Also if memory serves, Jhoon Rhee added the gold belt in the US because people were dropping off after four to six months because they didn't feel that they were getting anywhere. A green belt takes, on average, eight months to a year to earn.

I think that school owners came up with the additional belts as a way to enable the students to more easily track their own progress and to aid in designing curriculum. Abuses not withstanding, I don't really have a problem with a bevy of belts.

Additionally, and this is just my opinion, by testing such small increments, the students never have to master a significant of new skills between each test.

Do you have to do this in anything else?

You are tested every two to three weeks and quizzed weekly, sometimes several times a week in school, and you don't really learn any significantly new or groundbreaking material from one test to the next. Then you get the academic equivalent of a blackbelt test twice a year in the form of midterms and finals.

Imo, there should be a significant chuck of new stuff between grades, so that the grade itself is a significant achievement, and not just mastery of 4 techniques. At least for adults.

Should there be? If your gradings are six to eight months apart, then I'd agree, but not with testings every two to three months. I'd rather see the student gain depth and understanding of four techniques and internalize them than have a general knowldege that cannot be effectively applied.

Anyway, the goal isn't to see how much can be crammed into the curriculum between tests, but to bring the student to a point where they're proficient with the material. Generally, that is more effectively done in small chunks, which having a belt for each kyu grade works very well for.

Personally, I'm more in favor of fewer belts and the use of affixable stripes to the belt. But it doesn't matter what visual que is used. The important thing is the transmission of the material.

When the student test for black belt, they should look like they're really a blackbelt level student (the test is merely confirmation). If the student is well trained, well practiced, and knows the material, it really doesn't matter how many pieces of cloth they were given before the test.

A longtime student of the martial arts eventually learnes to see the belts for what they are: sign posts and markers to help them find their path. By blackbelt, fewer posts and markers are needed, and they come at longer and longer intervals, as the student is now able to find the path and mark progress without frequent posts and markers.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why? Why gi's with sparkles? Capes? Bright colors? etc... Just to be different and have your own style. Maybe for open tournament competition. It's just further commercialization, where everyone gets to tailor everything to their likes.

Elvis Presley did that. They wouldn't let him wear it to class, so he took it on stage.

Yes, the eagle jump suite really was based on his karate gi. Whoooa, momma!!

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

I was told that a long time ago, students would get a white belt when they started learning, after years of being in the martial arts that white belt, would gradually get darker with the oils from your hand tying and untying it , with sweat, blood and dirt from the dojo till it was basically black. That's how you could tell the time in the art. And that's why you never wash your belt.

Today, it's used for tracking progress and time in an art. Unfortunately, some schools add belts because of the testing fees involved. I don't feel that adding belts is too bad a thing if the student knows what he or she is doing. The problem comes from advancing students just cause they paid their fees and giving them a false sense of accomplishment. That's when you start getting the attitudes of "I'm this color belt or that color belt". Sooner or later their mouths start writing checks that their body can't cash.

By the way, I just got my 6th degree fuscia and teal belt with five different color tapes on it for $65.00, so don't mess with me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was told that a long time ago, students would get a white belt when they started learning, after years of being in the martial arts that white belt, would gradually get darker with the oils from your hand tying and untying it , with sweat, blood and dirt from the dojo till it was basically black. That's how you could tell the time in the art. And that's why you never wash your belt.

This is a nice martial arts fairy tale to provide some historic justification for a blackbelt. Interestingly, the opposite is true: a blackbelt begins to lose its dye and show white after years of wear.

The gi and black and white obi and the kyu/dan system were introduced by Kano in the early twentieth century.

Before that, Koryo arts practitioners wore a hakama and kimono. Okinawans practicing karate did so in their everyday clothes. The idea of a belt system is completely foreign to many of the cultures who's arts adopted it; there was no belt system in Korean martial arts until the Japanese occupation. Some western martial arts have adopted a belt system, but there is absolutely no justification for it. Nothing wrong with it, but there is no historicity to the blackbelt outside of Japan, and none in Japan before the twentieth century.

Even the Kyu/dan system is lifted by Kano from the game of Go. Until the twentieth century, there was no kyu/dan system in the martial arts.


Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Today, it's used for tracking progress and time in an art. Unfortunately, some schools add belts because of the testing fees involved. I don't feel that adding belts is too bad a thing if the student knows what he or she is doing. The problem comes from advancing students just cause they paid their fees and giving them a false sense of accomplishment. That's when you start getting the attitudes of "I'm this color belt or that color belt". Sooner or later their mouths start writing checks that their body can't cash.

By the way, I just got my 6th degree fuscia and teal belt with five different color tapes on it for $65.00, so don't mess with me.

I wanted to address this in a separate post.

This is the major problem of abuse of the belt system: inflated rank and deflated training.

Students become focused on the acquisition of the belt, rather than using it as a progress marker. Schools become focused on getting students to test and pay the fee rather than on training the student awarding them rank when appropriate.

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

This is a nice martial arts fairy tale to provide some historic justification for a blackbelt. Interestingly, the opposite is true: a blackbelt begins to lose its dye and show white after years of wear.

The gi and black and white obi and the kyu/dan system were introduced by Kano in the early twentieth century.

Before that, Koryo arts practitioners wore a hakama and kimono. Okinawans practicing karate did so in their everyday clothes. The idea of a belt system is completely foreign to many of the cultures who's arts adopted it; there was no belt system in Korean martial arts until the Japanese occupation. Some western martial arts have adopted a belt system, but there is absolutely no justification for it. Nothing wrong with it, but there is no historicity to the blackbelt outside of Japan, and none in Japan before the twentieth century.

Even the Kyu/dan system is lifted by Kano from the game of Go. Until the twentieth century, there was no kyu/dan system in the martial arts.


Daniel

Well thank you for raining on my parade. Ignorance is bliss and now I'm not bliss anymore Daniel. LOL

No really, good info. Didn't really know what the facts were, just something I was told long ago.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry if I came off as a know it all.

I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.

Given that nearly everyone I know who is in martial arts received their introduction to MA through taekwondo, my guess is that such stories are told to a great many people. There are other 'historical' references made by the powers that be in the KKW that are questionable or patently false.

Daniel

 

[Carol]

Sorry if I came off as a know it all.

I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.

Given that nearly everyone I know who is in martial arts received their introduction to MA through taekwondo, my guess is that such stories are told to a great many people. There are other 'historical' references made by the powers that be in the KKW that are questionable or patently false.

Daniel

Interesting point. I had wondered if they had sprung from schools that play up the mysticism or philosophical aspect of the art. Some of these martial arts tales that float around as fact strike me as tales that weren't intended to be facts...they were instead intended to be some sort of koan...such as illustrating how earning a black belt is a long and gradual process but each day of sweat and dirt brings you one step closer.

 

[just2kicku]

Sorry if I came off as a know it all.

I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.

Given that nearly everyone I know who is in martial arts received their introduction to MA through taekwondo, my guess is that such stories are told to a great many people. There are other 'historical' references made by the powers that be in the KKW that are questionable or patently false.

Daniel

I was kidding with you. You don't sound like a know it all. I'm glad you answered this. Like I said it's what was told to me, no facts or anything. Everyone has there own idea of the history as TOLD. I personally have know idea how the belt thing came to be, I was happy as a white belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The belt thing came about as a result of Jigoro Kano's modernizing jujutsu into judo. Kano devised the judo-gi and the thin obi that are now part of probably 80% or more of traditional martial arts schools.

He used the belts to be able to pick out at a glance the advanced students from the novices. It also served to tell novice students which students they could go to for help. Initially, there were only two belts: white and black. The game, Go, is a traditional strategy game played in Japan and the kyu/dan system is part of that.

I am not an expert on Kano, but I do recall reading that Kano was influenced by athletics and how athletes were ranked, particularly with swimming from what I understand.

I don't know all of his reasons for doing what he did. Part of it could be because teachers of bujutsu were in a period of transition after the then recent major upheavals in the Japanese government. I do know that he had the chops to be taken very seriously in his craft. His system was adopted by most, if not all gendai budo. It was then adopted by most, if not all Korean schools as a result of Japan's occupation of Korea.

Daniel

 

[searcher]

The belt thing came about as a result of Jigoro Kano's modernizing jujutsu into judo. Kano devised the judo-gi and the thin obi that are now part of probably 80% or more of traditional martial arts schools.

He used the belts to be able to pick out at a glance the advanced students from the novices. It also served to tell novice students which students they could go to for help. Initially, there were only two belts: white and black. The game, Go, is a traditional strategy game played in Japan and the kyu/dan system is part of that.

I am not an expert on Kano, but I do recall reading that Kano was influenced by athletics and how athletes were ranked, particularly with swimming from what I understand.

I don't know all of his reasons for doing what he did. Part of it could be because teachers of bujutsu were in a period of transition after the then recent major upheavals in the Japanese government. I do know that he had the chops to be taken very seriously in his craft. His system was adopted by most, if not all gendai budo. It was then adopted by most, if not all Korean schools as a result of Japan's occupation of Korea.

Daniel

Adding to Daniel's post. Kano wanted to give his students something that they could work for, so he added green and brown in addition to black and white, so the students could set goals for themselves.


And in the "pre-belt" times, the only people who wore Hakama were those of higher status. Everybody else wore what they could afford. Train in what you normally wear, it will keep you alive a little longer.

 

[matt.m]

It is true, everyone thank the Granson of Jigoro Kano, Yikimitsu. Send him an email to the Kodokan. Jigoro Kano initiated the belt system. When he traveled abroad to England, etc he found that having a "Military type" of rank structure was indeed of benefit. It was self-esteem, goal orientated, and goals had to be met and accomplished before the award of rank could be given.

When Bong Yul Shin and Lee H. Park came to america they had the following: White, Yellow, Green, Brown, and Black.......

Gee the original judo belt ranking system. GGM Bong Yul Shin uses that same belt system to teach judo and hapkido to this day. In tae kwon do he added the orange, blue, purple and red. I teach the judo cirriculum with the White, Yellow, Green, Brown, and Black.

I can see why the "Tabs, Stipes, hashes" or whatever. If it is standard in the school then it is routine, has a routine and set cirriculum for all the world to see and know what to expect.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And in the "pre-belt" times, the only people who wore Hakama were those of higher status. Everybody else wore what they could afford. Train in what you normally wear, it will keep you alive a little longer.

Yeppers. Most folks just trained in their everyday clothes.

Heck, some trained in their undergarments. Imagine a school doing that today!

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Yeppers. Most folks just trained in their everyday clothes.

Heck, some trained in their undergarments. Imagine a school doing that today!

Daniel

You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...

I'll take undergarments.

 

[jarrod]

You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...

I'll take undergarments.

i think i'd prefer even naked to what they do in turkish wrestling.

leather pants, & you're covered in oil.

oh yeah, & women aren't allowed to watch.

jf

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...

I'll take undergarments.

Needless to say, nude classes would pretty much kill your childrens' program too.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

um...

i got nothing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

i think i'd prefer even naked to what they do in turkish wrestling.

leather pants, & you're covered in oil.

oh yeah, & women aren't allowed to watch.

jf

Sheesh! What's the point of that?

Perhaps I'm best not knowing.

Daniel

 

[Cirdan]

Turkish wrestling.... aww thanks for bringing back pictures from memory that I`d finally closed off from my own fragile mind :vu: