Mixing Lineages

[Si-Je]

Just wondered what you all thought about learning from different lineages and merging what you learn into, well just plain Wing Chun?
Apparently my training was mixed to begin with a dash of Master Fung and Wing Tsun/Tzun? (asked Sifu Emin if he knew hubbie and stated that he'd never heard of him. Interesting.... anyways..)

Have a new teacher now with a completely new lineage and techniques galore.
He doesn't like Dai Sau from the Fung system (don't really care, gonna keep it anyways and use it too. Because it works and makes bong sau practical) He has a different tan sau/wu sau like position that is really new to me and he can stop the WT blitz method of chain punching easy. (I can now too. It's so easy it's kinda embarrising )
He doesn't like bong sau and I agree with why because it's used wrong so often and get collapsed. (but, if you start with dai sau you get turned into bong sau like your supposed to).

He has no Chit Sau (Fung) but a variant of WT lower gate deflection (forgot the name, no "chopping" sideways motion just goes foreward. Or maybe I was taught wrong. Never used that WT deflection always used Chit Sau)

and he speaks of long bridge and short bridge styles of wing chun. What is this? Don't all lineages cover long and short bridge? Or do they favor one over the other? Questions, Questions! too many questions!

Just some examples of differences there are soooo much more...
But, I was thinking of training as many lineages as I can and putting everything together. (after years and years, of course. just a really looooong term goal. lol!)

It seems that different lineages/teachers seem to teach the techiques they like the best and leave others out.
I want, I WANT ALL techique, gimmie gimmie! lol!
Just wondered what some of you thought about all this.

 

[jks9199]

Simply concentrate on your training. The rest is peripheral falderal.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

It's called learning. Good thing to do.

There are many different strategies and tactics in Wing Chun. I agree with how easy it is to stop the common straight chain punching methods.

Sun Tzu said that knowing yourself and your enemy is the best policy. Yet ingraining certain strategies and certain tactics is good training and performance enhancing.

Wing Chun effectiveness depends on the individual instructor. Also the training of Wing Chun doesn't mean that you stop being an intelligent, thinking person. Thus evaluate everything and train diligently so you can gain the necessary experience, knowledge and wisdom to know what is best for you.

It does take good mentoring and teachers, so that the learning is very much accelerated. Good Teachers are very, very valuable.

Thank them.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado

 

[Punchy]

Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?

 

[Si-Je]

Learning is good, yes.
But what are you learning? And how? Why?

Teachers teach and I'm sure many very well but, Why so different? Pride? Predijuce? Profit?
Know that it is also the students responsibility to learn regardless of the merits of the teacher and the limits or strengths of the style.

Why are branches so different? It's the same art.
And the different spelling in English "characters" is starting to really irritate me.
Weng, Wing, Ving, Chun, Tsun, Tzun and more I just don't want to know or go there....

They all teach severly different wing chun. That is the question, Why?
Ah,.... just had a thought.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The best example of merged lineage is Wan Kam Leung. He has mixed his wing chun from various different sources and formed his own version which is incredibly good

The whole point of cross training is to iron out the weaknesses in your wing chun and make sure it does what it says on the tin. Saying that, it is not good to jump from one style to another until you have become good at each one

I know of some instructors who jump ship when things get to tough for them. You have to make sure that you understand your art and then work on another.

 

[Si-Je]

Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?

There are a couple, sorry. Not telling. Keeping those under my hat for now. There are just too many people that rely on chain punching as the end all be all. (myself included)
What he showed me works so much better than bong sau or lap/lat sau.

Give you a hint though:
It is very good practice to make sure that you bring your hand back to your chest when chain punching, everytime.

 

[Si-Je]

The best example of merged lineage is Wan Kam Leung. He has mixed his wing chun from various different sources and formed his own version which is incredibly good

The whole point of cross training is to iron out the weaknesses in your wing chun and make sure it does what it says on the tin. Saying that, it is not good to jump from one style to another until you have become good at each one

I know of some instructors who jump ship when things get to tough for them. You have to make sure that you understand your art and then work on another.

Oh, I'm not cross training anything. It's all Wing Chun. Just that this lineage has techiques that I've not come accross.
Granted, My last "teacher" didn't teach me most of the WT techniques and I've discovered that this last year. So, I'm really not considering WT as part of a Wing Chun lineage I've trained anymore. (LT and/or Emin)
I know the forms from Master Fungs Lineage and some concepts, but not alot from there either. (wish I knew more from there!)

And, I'm not instructor Kamon. And will never teach again for sure! This is for the "family" so to speak. For me to know and Babygirl to learn. Everyone else can learn from their respective lineages and teachers, schools out over here. lol!

Hope you had a happy turkey day all!
(for you Europeans, eat up last harvest. )

 

[hunt1]

The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then there is no reason not to seek out different teachers . You may learn something!

 

[Si-Je]

The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then there is no reason not to seek out different teachers . You may learn something!

I think that art has been split up and dissected to the point that there are a lot of lineages or teachers that honestly teach rotten Wing Chun because it's been changed too much for whatever reason.
I wonder when it all got split up so badly? Ip Man? Must be, he taught the most students.
Did his students do this?

I think it would be nice to have the system complete again.

I'm pretty mad that I spend 5 years learning Wing Chun created by a woman and taught to me by a huge man who taught me to fight like a big man. Total waste of 5 years!
Blitz chain punching down the centerline on a larger opponent, blah blah. Not good, there is better. Like I should fight like a girl! God!

Without the Fung stuff I'd never have gotten as far as I did. So, either teachers are just teaching whatever they want or the system has been compromised.
I'd like to learn a system that goes back more to the origional nature of the style. I hope this time I've got it, this teacher is awesome! And I wish I could go to class more than once a week.

I still use chain punching don't get me wrong. I just don't use it like an aggressive large man. And I still am a proponent of deflection, attack and kicking at the same time (with a latch is even more ideal!) Although this is not what I'm being taught right now. Teach says my "boxing" is weak, and he's right. Depended too much on chain punch and kicking and need more work on sensitivity, spring energy, foreward force thought and I'm FINALLY being taught how to break the structure.

Oh, forgot the Catrell stuff. Learned that lineage years back. Mostly flow drills and step drills. (step drills like: I do this move, you do that move, then I do this move type of training. 1,2,3,) More defensive and focuses on trapping, too much movement. But strange how all this stuff still beats most other types of styles and fighters regardless of the weaknesses.

 

[jks9199]

But strange how all this stuff still beats most other types of styles and fighters regardless of the weaknesses.

Strange how, with all those adventures and misadventures in one style, you're still locked on the idea that any one style is THE answer...

 

[Si-Je]

Strange how, with all those adventures and misadventures in one style, you're still locked on the idea that any one style is THE answer...

That's not even the topic of conversation. I'm talking about a style/system that is incomplete because of politics or whatever reason.

I've got a good friend from high school thats wanting to get into MMA and compete, but he really wants to learn martial arts. He's fasinated with Muy Tai and asking me for advice on his plan for training.

I've told him to learn Muy Tai (or a single style first. he's fascinated with MT) and study for at least a year before going to a MMA class. (and he was told similar by the MMA teacher he talked to) For him to get a strong base in an art first.

He'll be in Dallas and there are several Wing Chun teachers there. But WC/WT/VT is not for him right now. He's too stiff, likes to work out (constantly) lift weights and Muy Tai is more to his personality and philosophy right now.

But,.... We spar lightly and I'm showing him some Wing Chun too on the side. Think I corrupted him and confused him a bit. He was doubting whether he should train WC/WT/VT or Muy Tai, and really likes the Wing Chun.

Showed him defense against shoot/grapple takedown WC style, escapes from arm locks (standing), defense against MT clinch, chain punch, tan sau and pac sau. Thats it. He was really excited and wants to train more. From me.

But, not sure I want to corrupt his MT training before it gets started. I will practice on him when he's trained up though. Never got to play around with a traditional MT person.
But the point is:
He can learn a total system through MT more than WC right now. I'll show him the stuff I know in a year when I get more of it together. Wing Chun is really an art that you have to seek out multiple teachers where he can focus on one right now with MT. And this will be his first art.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh dear, I did forget alot about this site. Moderators are LEO's (I still can't believe that they teach cops BJJ, terrible. Even the air marshals when I worked at T.S.A. did. useless on a plane. pitty)

I met one old u.s. air marshal once, he was awesome. Did Eagle Claw, ouch!

I'm really all done here. No need to share experience and knowledge when every TMAist truely doesn't believe that their art works in the street, competition whatever. Why train it then?

The limited midset of MAist hasn't changed, everyone's just got to cross train many styles to be effective. MMA rules. Learn to fight like everyone else is fighting because any other way to fight is wrong.

Thought it would be neat to chat with other chunners about a pretty serious issue. The state of the art of Wing Chun and why there are so many schools that teach inferior Wing Chun or Wing Chun that is lacking. That's okay. The solution is to just cross train another art, not to unite an art that has been spilt from itself for so long to where it's causing problems with the overall style.

If Teachers would shelve their pride and train and share with each other, Wing Chun would have a total new re-birth. Until this happens, Wing Chun will continue to be beaten by inferior styles and fighters.

On to train now. Tomorrow I will bring up some of these concerns with my Sifu and see what he has to say and see if I can get more training time in. Will probably have to bring kiddo to class again. (very cool he lets me bring my 4 year old. lol! She's kinda become the school mascot. )

Sorry to sound bummed but, well... I am. It's a bummer to deal with others mental limitations. But, I'm punkrock and don't care what people say I can and can't do. That's why I've won my competition fights using %100 Wing Chun. Too bad can't share that with others of the art.

Latez,
PunkzNotDed....

 

[Yoshin9]

Each teacher is bound to be a little different than the last one because not only do they have different physical abilities (including size, strength, age, etc.) but they also have different personalities.

I think learning different ways to do something is a good thing, there are only two cautions I have: 1. In class do it the way the teacher told you to, you are in his school and you are there to learn his way. 2. When on your own only keep what works best for you, no need to clutter up your head with 100 variations on the same technique, 2-3 variations are enough.

 

[Si-Je]

Each teacher is bound to be a little different than the last one because not only do they have different physical abilities (including size, strength, age, etc.) but they also have different personalities.

I think learning different ways to do something is a good thing, there are only two cautions I have: 1. In class do it the way the teacher told you to, you are in his school and you are there to learn his way. 2. When on your own only keep what works best for you, no need to clutter up your head with 100 variations on the same technique, 2-3 variations are enough.

I agree with #1 rule: And I do NOT go to a school and try to "test" them with my other WT or whatever. Respectful, that's why I don't chain punch. (I did once and it got just "slapped" away. lol! Hey, teach asked me to. Mental note: "don't always do what the teacher asks." lol!) They're teaching me something else, another option. What I know comes out in a heat, but not on purpose.
Besides, they can deal with that just fine.

Thanks for the post. Your right about different physical abilities and teaching, this is common. He's a big guy but knows very "subtle" movements like a small person would be good at doing. Hard to explain. But his physique is not a hinderance to his teaching style.

#2- yes what I keep for me is mine and "under my hat." But this are not variations of the same technique. Their completely different techniques! They have the same basics, tan, pac, woo sau.... etc... But there are techniques here that aren't in other lineages.

ex. Just like Dai and Chit Sau from Master Fung. Two techniques just NOT in another lineage. (right? so far as I can tell chatting here and asking other Wing Chun folks)

That's what I mean about mixing lineages. Taking all the techniques and putting them together to make complete Wing Chun knowledge. That would be sooo cool.....

Maybe I haven't come accros a teacher that has complete knowledge or their teacher didn't, whatever. It's fascinating all the hiding and sneaking about with technique. Waste of energy.

Teach, Learn, Go, Do! Then Learn more, Teach, Go, and Do Some More!

 

[MJS]

Oh dear, I did forget alot about this site. Moderators are LEO's (I still can't believe that they teach cops BJJ, terrible. Even the air marshals when I worked at T.S.A. did. useless on a plane. pitty)

Just to clarify a few things:

1) Not every Mod here is a LEO. Some are, some are not.

2) BJJ and LEOs: IMO, basic ground grappling/fighting is very important for everyone. Due to the fact that many LEOs are on the ground with a suspect, is a good enough reason, IMO, for them to understand the ground. However, the ground game that they learn, should be different from the ground game that the average citizen learns. The average citizen probably doesnt carry a gun, baton, cuffs, OC, etc, the officer does, therefore, weapon retention is very important.

So yes, in a nutshell, ground grappling/fighting is important for LEOs, but it needs to be taught in a specific way.

 

[James Kovacich]

Just wondered what you all thought about learning from different lineages and merging what you learn into, well just plain Wing Chun?
Apparently my training was mixed to begin with a dash of Master Fung and Wing Tsun/Tzun? (asked Sifu Emin if he knew hubbie and stated that he'd never heard of him. Interesting.... anyways..)

Have a new teacher now with a completely new lineage and techniques galore.
He doesn't like Dai Sau from the Fung system (don't really care, gonna keep it anyways and use it too. Because it works and makes bong sau practical) He has a different tan sau/wu sau like position that is really new to me and he can stop the WT blitz method of chain punching easy. (I can now too. It's so easy it's kinda embarrising )
He doesn't like bong sau and I agree with why because it's used wrong so often and get collapsed. (but, if you start with dai sau you get turned into bong sau like your supposed to).

He has no Chit Sau (Fung) but a variant of WT lower gate deflection (forgot the name, no "chopping" sideways motion just goes foreward. Or maybe I was taught wrong. Never used that WT deflection always used Chit Sau)

and he speaks of long bridge and short bridge styles of wing chun. What is this? Don't all lineages cover long and short bridge? Or do they favor one over the other? Questions, Questions! too many questions!

Just some examples of differences there are soooo much more...
But, I was thinking of training as many lineages as I can and putting everything together. (after years and years, of course. just a really looooong term goal. lol!)

It seems that different lineages/teachers seem to teach the techiques they like the best and leave others out.
I want, I WANT ALL techique, gimmie gimmie! lol!
Just wondered what some of you thought about all this.

It's noble to want to learn as much as possible while it's also noble to take another approach.
http://wslwingchun.resolvedesign.com/wong_shun_leung_ving_tsun_gung_fu.htm

 

[Si-Je]

Just to clarify a few things:

1) Not every Mod here is a LEO. Some are, some are not.

2) BJJ and LEOs: IMO, basic ground grappling/fighting is very important for everyone. Due to the fact that many LEOs are on the ground with a suspect, is a good enough reason, IMO, for them to understand the ground. However, the ground game that they learn, should be different from the ground game that the average citizen learns. The average citizen probably doesnt carry a gun, baton, cuffs, OC, etc, the officer does, therefore, weapon retention is very important.

So yes, in a nutshell, ground grappling/fighting is important for LEOs, but it needs to be taught in a specific way.

didn't mean to belittle. (well maybe a bit.
I "understand" the "ground".
Studied JJJ
And kicking
And kung fu
and wc
blah, blah.

Do BJJ on an airplane. I challenge you to do so! Just practice it. It won't work.
Whatever, L.E.O.
Worked with you guys, ya'll tough but .... mean well.

Yes, the average citizen doesn't learn much of martial arts. Weird that ya'll always comandere a civilian to teach you MA.
Weird.
Anyways. Delete me.
Thank you.

 

[Si-Je]

Delete me!

 

[Punchy]

Is the problem truly in chain punching or is it people who chain punch rigidly?
I'm not saying that chainpunching is the be all end all of WC tactics necessarilly, but rather than throw out the baby with the bath water, shouldn't the approach be to make your punches more springy and fluid, and then if someone tries to trap them down, your punches would deviate into something else.....kup jarn from biu tze "springs" to mind.