Bong-Sau

[zepedawingchun]

No I am using the thumb side of the Tan Sau on the inside of his wrist , but you can't always get through on the inside , it is preferable but not always possible.

It really depends on what type of force he is giving me , his force might be coming down or slightly across , it is better for me to redirect his force rather than let his force disrupt my stance.

I seem to be having trouble making myself understood , so here's a guy I used to train with demonstrating the technique.

I didn't see a tan sao in there. I'm assuming your talking about the dark haired gentleman in the blue shift responding to an attack. I saw a bong sao yielding, then a lop (lap) sao with a left wu sao supporting the bong sao, then the wu sao does the lop. Doesn't look like any tan sao in there.

Regarding the reverse Tan Sau.
Ok imagine you have your guard on and I use my right hand to press on the outside of your right wrist giving you some pressure.

If you just rotated into Tan Sau and pivoted , your Tan sau would be on your centerline but facing away from your opponents centerline which is no good to us at all.

To remedy this the elbow of your Tan sau comes out laterally away from your body so that the elbow and forearm can line up focused back at the opponents centerline when I have pivoted

Even though the arm is coming back , it is like a spring with forward force focused back at the opponent at all times.

The elbow doesn't drop back into the body , the angle is maintained.
We sink the whole arm from the shoulder joint thus redirecting the force down and to the side.
For the opponent it feels like he is trying to press on the edge of a circle that is moving.

We call this a crossing tan sao. It is used mainly when you are having to defend a punch in which you have stepped into an attackers center and the energy from the punch is attempting to come into your center. It's usually done with a shift.

 

[mook jong man]

I didn't see a tan sao in there. I'm assuming your talking about the dark haired gentleman in the blue shift responding to an attack. I saw a bong sao yielding, then a lop (lap) sao with a left wu sao supporting the bong sao, then the wu sao does the lop. Doesn't look like any tan sao in there.

No he didn't , but he should have , or at least tried to pierce through with his guard.
I was in a bit of a hurry when I put it up and didn't look at it properly.

As I alluded to earlier a lot of the time you will get through , but just in case you don't , a bit of forward force first will make the redirection that much more effective.

 

[Vajramusti]

Yes, that it is. That biu sao first shows up in Chum Kiu, first part of the form, several hand positions before the bong saos. Look for it, you'll find it. Then again in Biu Jee form, second part last motions. It is used for high hooking or arcing punches to the neck and head. Tan and bong sao are meant to handle punches or strikes between the lower abdomin (stomach) and to the bottom of the neck.

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In our (Augustine Fong) sil lim tau- the seed of the biu gee is in the two handed shooting out in part 2 of the form right after the double jam and jut.
When you apply it -sugggestion: do not straighten out your elbow- straightening out is for devlopment. Donald Mak who is shown doing the biu gee on this thread is a good guy in Hong Kong.

Joy Chaudhuri

 

[wtxs]

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In our (Augustine Fong) sil lim tau- the seed of the biu gee is in the two handed shooting out in part 2 of the form right after the double jam and jut.
When you apply it -sugggestion: do not straighten out your elbow- straightening out is for devlopment. Donald Mak who is shown doing the biu gee on this thread is a good guy in Hong Kong.

Joy Chaudhuri

Hello Joy, good call on the Bil Gee seed.

Very few WCners realize the birth place of the Bil Gee/Sao is within the SLT. Some goes so far as to suggested it existed only in the third hand form.

 

[graychuan]

As I was taught, you should never raise or use a bong sao for anything to the side of the neck or above. Structurely, it is too weak and leaves the abdomin too open. With a biu sao, it allows you to drop your elbow if needed (for a tan sao with a shift) if the direction of the attack is changed.

Can I get an AMEN?!?!

 

[graychuan]

....We call this a crossing tan sao. It is used mainly when you are having to defend a punch in which you have stepped into an attackers center and the energy from the punch is attempting to come into your center.... It's usually done with a shift.

ZEPE, referring to the same example he gave you regarding the right palm press against the right Tan-Sao....

We also do this but the elbow stays forward off the body and doesn't go lateral. The Tan Sao 'opens' from the rotation of the humerus bone(shoulder down to elbow) along its axis so that the edge of the thumb-side is in line with the outside edge of shoulder instead of the center. We call this moving to the 'square'(extend both hands forward straight off the shoulders-like from CK- and this will show you the 'square'). Use this along with the pivot and the forward energy and this action will steal that line. Even with the power of the press coming in, the structure with that pivot will prevail.
This is a subtle difference but I clearly understand what you are getting at. We are definitely barking up the same tree. :ultracool Thank you.

 

[zepedawingchun]

ZEPE, referring to the same example he gave you regarding the right palm press against the right Tan-Sao....

We also do this but the elbow stays forward off the body and doesn't go lateral.

Same here, the elbow(s) never touches the side of the body. It should remain at the fixed (immovable) elbow position.

 

[Domino]

Hi everybody...

I've recently started training wing chun again after a few years break...
I used to train in the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system and got a 6th student grade...

A lot of stuff happened just before I quit, with the LT system... and not so long after (we're talking '02-'04 here) a lot of the very good WT practitioners jumped off and started their own Wing Chun Branches...

Anyway... Now I train with with one of the new branches and since I quitted, a lot of changes has been made to the system...

One of the things I noticed and are having are hard time to wrap my mind around is the bong-sau...

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/techniques/bong-sau

 

[Si-Je]

Hi everybody...

I've recently started training wing chun again after a few years break...
I used to train in the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system and got a 6th student grade...

A lot of stuff happened just before I quit, with the LT system... and not so long after (we're talking '02-'04 here) a lot of the very good WT practitioners jumped off and started their own Wing Chun Branches...

Anyway... Now I train with with one of the new branches and since I quitted, a lot of changes has been made to the system...

One of the things I noticed and are having are hard time to wrap my mind around is the bong-sau...

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

Oh, dear! That sounds like Dai Sau. Only Dai Sau doesn't have the same angle from wrist to elbow as bong sau. Could you show a pic of it?
Say, when you do Si Lim Tau form and go from Tan Sau to Bong Sau, What is in the middle? Maybe this new "bong sau" your learning.
Neato.

One question, Where are your fingers pointing with this back of the hand upward bong sau?
Okay, two questions, lol! Does your elbow go as high as your temple with the forearm parallel to the floor?

Sounds like Dai Sau.
Yes, alot has changed since the deali-o with LT and such. Are they calling this movement "bong sau?" I think alot of wing chun teachers are shying away from traditional bong sau.
A pitty though, it is difficult to teach and apply until much later in training and can easily be used incorrectly but is still important for getting to the outside of the opponent's centerline.

 

[izeqb]

Oh, dear! That sounds like Dai Sau. Only Dai Sau doesn't have the same angle from wrist to elbow as bong sau. Could you show a pic of it?
Say, when you do Si Lim Tau form and go from Tan Sau to Bong Sau, What is in the middle? Maybe this new "bong sau" your learning.
Neato.

Isn't that Lan-Sai (barrier arm)...?

One question, Where are your fingers pointing with this back of the hand upward bong sau?
Okay, two questions, lol! Does your elbow go as high as your temple with the forearm parallel to the floor?

Sounds like Dai Sau.
Yes, alot has changed since the deali-o with LT and such. Are they calling this movement "bong sau?" I think alot of wing chun teachers are shying away from traditional bong sau.
A pitty though, it is difficult to teach and apply until much later in training and can easily be used incorrectly but is still important for getting to the outside of the opponent's centerline.

A lot of stuff has happened since I wrote the OP.
And the stuff I was told wasn't true..

It was a misunderstanding that another student had gotten... So, we're still using good old bon-sau