Bong-Sau

[izeqb]

Hi everybody...

I've recently started training wing chun again after a few years break...
I used to train in the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system and got a 6th student grade...

A lot of stuff happened just before I quit, with the LT system... and not so long after (we're talking '02-'04 here) a lot of the very good WT practitioners jumped off and started their own Wing Chun Branches...

Anyway... Now I train with with one of the new branches and since I quitted, a lot of changes has been made to the system...

One of the things I noticed and are having are hard time to wrap my mind around is the bong-sau...

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

 

[wtxs]

Hi everybody...

I've recently started training wing chun again after a few years break...
I used to train in the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system and got a 6th student grade...

A lot of stuff happened just before I quit, with the LT system... and not so long after (we're talking '02-'04 here) a lot of the very good WT practitioners jumped off and started their own Wing Chun Branches...

Anyway... Now I train with with one of the new branches and since I quitted, a lot of changes has been made to the system...

One of the things I noticed and are having are hard time to wrap my mind around is the bong-sau...

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

You are right, with due respect to the new-and-improved way of doing WC, the classical (the old days) bong is as you remembered, however I would describe it more like an inverted fook sao.

The advantage of the "vertical lan sao" present itself when continue the bong forward motion (cork screw) into an strike.

The classical bong is more versatile, rotating the wrist towards an tan while continue the forward motion into an knife edge cut or an palm heel strike, ie counter attack from under, and no ... I don't mean Australia. :boing1: By "collapse" the bong (aka lap sao) while moving forward, rotate the fook inward, up and out into an back fist, or an short upper cut punch if you like.

As with others, Bong sao is an instrument in the WC tool box, it can be used in more ways than the obvious. IMHO don't get hung upon what or how others do with it. It's your bong sao, max the ways it can work for you.

You go train now!

 

[BloodMoney]

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

Yeah thats the one man, or as said above 'like an inverted fuk sau"

Why do it that way? Cause thats bong sau thats why

 

[geezer]

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

If you reached 6th Student Grade, you should have a solid grasp of the standard WT bong sau. I trained directly with LT throughout the 80's and your description sounds quite correct. I left the WT system as a 3rd level Technician in the early 90's and just came back to join the new NVTO group here in the States a few years ago. I still do the "classical" version, as I was taught. However, I have noted that the EBMAS WT group sometimes employs the lan-sau variation, for example in the counter to the first attack in WT Chi-Sau, Section 1. The new movement seems more streamlined and aggressively functional in that particular situation. However, I am not aware that they have altered bong sau across the board. I rather doubt it. Other groups may have. Anyway, welcome to the ranks of the WT ronin. Who do you train with?

 

[mook jong man]

Hi everybody...

I've recently started training wing chun again after a few years break...
I used to train in the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system and got a 6th student grade...

A lot of stuff happened just before I quit, with the LT system... and not so long after (we're talking '02-'04 here) a lot of the very good WT practitioners jumped off and started their own Wing Chun Branches...

Anyway... Now I train with with one of the new branches and since I quitted, a lot of changes has been made to the system...

One of the things I noticed and are having are hard time to wrap my mind around is the bong-sau...

In "the old days" i learned that the bong-sau was made with the palm kinda outwards (like checking the time on a imaginary watch)...

But, a lot of the people I've trained with recently, make the bong-sau more like a vertical lan-sau, with the back of the hand facing upwards.

Can some of you more experienced wing chun guys please explain to me thw what and why's of the bong-sau...

I wouldn't be too worried about what your hand is doing , the important bit is the position of the wrist and that your elbow force is distributed evenly along the forearm.

I can tack anything I want onto the end of the Bong Sau , a fist , a palm strike or a finger jab , but in the end its still a Bong Sau.

In the early stages of chi sau training it definitely helps with your focus , and forward force to have your fingers pointing to where you want them to go ie the centerline.
This is a bit like training wheels on a bike .

But if you watch a lot of the masters closely when they do chi sau their hands are very relaxed and flopping all over the place , but their wrists stay strictly positioned on the centerline.

Because they have been training for so long that their force is focused so perfectly from their elbow to their wrist it doesn't matter what their hand is doing , you take your hand away and they'll hit you.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I dont train under the LT system (thank god), but I know what you mean about the bong sao. Defensively, the bong sao with the palm facing downwards (we will call it Version 2) is rubbish. However, as members have mentioned on here, it is quicker to get that type of bong sao up and moulds very easily into the fut sao strike (chop)

The bong sao with the palm facing forwards (Version 1) is an amazing structure, but is a little slower to get up and its harder to work off of it.
An interesting little test on how good that kind of bong sao is (and something I do with my students to emphasise the importance of structure), is to get a partner pulling the bong sao downwards. You will notice that Version 2 bong sao is very easy to pull down, whereas Version 1 is very difficult. This is a lot to do with the joints and how the structure utilizes good angles (like a crane).

Both bong saos have their merit and you have to decide which works for you on a practical level

 

[izeqb]

If you reached 6th Student Grade, you should have a solid grasp of the standard WT bong sau. I trained directly with LT throughout the 80's and your description sounds quite correct. I left the WT system as a 3rd level Technician in the early 90's and just came back to join the new NVTO group here in the States a few years ago. I still do the "classical" version, as I was taught. However, I have noted that the EBMAS WT group sometimes employs the lan-sau variation, for example in the counter to the first attack in WT Chi-Sau, Section 1. The new movement seems more streamlined and aggressively functional in that particular situation. However, I am not aware that they have altered bong sau across the board. I rather doubt it. Other groups may have. Anyway, welcome to the ranks of the WT ronin. Who do you train with?

I thought I had a pretty good idea of the what and why's about the bongsau... but again, I haven't trained for a couple of years and when I started again, a lot of small details was changed from what I did learn back then...

I've also used the lansau as counter to the first attack previously (if I remember correctly) but what I'm talking about here is while doing poonsau...

I dont train under the LT system (thank god), but I know what you mean about the bong sao. Defensively, the bong sao with the palm facing downwards (we will call it Version 2) is rubbish. However, as members have mentioned on here, it is quicker to get that type of bong sao up and moulds very easily into the fut sao strike (chop)

The bong sao with the palm facing forwards (Version 1) is an amazing structure, but is a little slower to get up and its harder to work off of it.
An interesting little test on how good that kind of bong sao is (and something I do with my students to emphasise the importance of structure), is to get a partner pulling the bong sao downwards. You will notice that Version 2 bong sao is very easy to pull down, whereas Version 1 is very difficult. This is a lot to do with the joints and how the structure utilizes good angles (like a crane).

Both bong saos have their merit and you have to decide which works for you on a practical level

The understanding I got from talking with someone who had trained for a long time, was that "version2" was better as the force was more directed towards the opponents centerline...

I don't understand what you mean by pressing the bong downwards... wouldn't it make much more sense to test what structure is strongest when pushing inwards... Or did I mis something?

Thanks

 

[izeqb]

I wouldn't be too worried about what your hand is doing , the important bit is the position of the wrist and that your elbow force is distributed evenly along the forearm.

I can tack anything I want onto the end of the Bong Sau , a fist , a palm strike or a finger jab , but in the end its still a Bong Sau.

In the early stages of chi sau training it definitely helps with your focus , and forward force to have your fingers pointing to where you want them to go ie the centerline.
This is a bit like training wheels on a bike .

But if you watch a lot of the masters closely when they do chi sau their hands are very relaxed and flopping all over the place , but their wrists stay strictly positioned on the centerline.

Because they have been training for so long that their force is focused so perfectly from their elbow to their wrist it doesn't matter what their hand is doing , you take your hand away and they'll hit you.

I'm not really thinking about where the hands are pointing it's more the wrist I'm concerned about...

If the wrist should be vertical (version 1) or horisontal (version 2)... :wink2:

 

[mook jong man]

I'm not really thinking about where the hands are pointing it's more the wrist I'm concerned about...

If the wrist should be vertical (version 1) or horisontal (version 2)... :wink2:

I dunno then , I didn't even know there were two versions of Bong Sau.
I can't even think of how it could be improved , seems a bit like trying to improve the centerline punch , what are you going to do , make it even more centerliney ?

If I'm visualising what you are describing correctly then the original version makes use of a full rotation of the forearm whilst the version you describe only rotates to half way stopping when the wrist reaches horizontal.

The power to off balance your opponent with your Bong Sau or to effortlessly absorb and redirect a heavy strike largely comes from the revolving force of your forearm turning fully into Bong Sau.

In my opinion you might not be using this revolving power to its full potential if you are using the second type of Bong Sau.

Another thing I've just noticed from trying it out in the air just then , is that in the original version my bicep stays nice and relaxed , but in the second version there is a noticeable contraction of the bicep taking place , which is not really going to do much for your relaxation in my view.

 

[izeqb]

If I'm visualising what you are describing correctly then the original version makes use of a full rotation of the forearm whilst the version you describe only rotates to half way stopping when the wrist reaches horizontal.

Exactly...!

The power to off balance your opponent with your Bong Sau or to effortlessly absorb and redirect a heavy strike largely comes from the revolving force of your forearm turning fully into Bong Sau.

In my opinion you might not be using this revolving power to its full potential if you are using the second type of Bong Sau.

Another thing I've just noticed from trying it out in the air just then , is that in the original version my bicep stays nice and relaxed , but in the second version there is a noticeable contraction of the bicep taking place , which is not really going to do much for your relaxation in my view.

You're right about the biceps thing, didn't realize that before

I'm not sure what's going on with the "version 2" but if I find a good reason to use it that way instead, I'll let you know...

 

[yak sao]

I'm in no way trying to disparage anyone here, but, are you sure that the people that you are now under have a firm grasp of what bong sau is?

I've seen so many times where people change something they see as wrong, when in fact there was an incomplete understanding of it.

I trained in AWTO for 10 years and am now a direct student of an old HK student of LT from back in the old days.
Speaking from personal experience, I brought quite a few misconceptions to the table. Had I simply left and "started my own organization", I would have been building from a faulty blueprint.

 

[graychuan]

Another reason for the discrepancy in the bong-sao is when one uses it in an improper context. You can get yourself into trouble when you allow the elbow rise above the collarbone(clavicle). The upper body loses connection with the lower and there is no support of structure. This is true of all of the 'sao'.
Many try to use the bong-sao for defense against headshots. What they are really doing is using a bong & wu together. This works but you need to be careful of committing two hands to their one because you can be easily trapped that way. May as well just use the wu and leave the other hand free to bridge/ attack another way. The bong-sao is best supported by structure when you are protecting the body with it. And although the wu is still there it is guarding.

 

[mook jong man]

Another reason for the discrepancy in the bong-sao is when one uses it in an improper context. You can get yourself into trouble when you allow the elbow rise above the collarbone(clavicle). The upper body loses connection with the lower and there is no support of structure. This is true of all of the 'sao'.

I have to disagree with this statement , as long as the movement is supported by a pivot it will work fine.

For example if you swing a big committed haymaker at my head I can intercept it with a high Bong Sau and let the strike roll right over the top of me as I pivot , in essence his strike is being redirected over a circle.

But if I were to just stand there , then it is only my tiny deltoid muscles supporting my Bong Sau against a very powerful force coming from the side and it will collapse , but used with a pivot it is fine.

Many try to use the bong-sao for defense against headshots. What they are really doing is using a bong & wu together. This works but you need to be careful of committing two hands to their one because you can be easily trapped that way. May as well just use the wu and leave the other hand free to bridge/ attack another way. The bong-sao is best supported by structure when you are protecting the body with it. And although the wu is still there it is guarding.

Nothing wrong with using two hands , sometimes it is the only way to deal with a lot of power when there is a huge size discrepancy between theopponent and you.

If a huge steroid freak is coming at me with a spinning backfist you better believe that I'm going to use a double Fook Sau to stop it , then counter attack , sometimes there is just no choice.

Using the Bong and the Wu together is ok , but you should be using it against a heavy force where the opponent is committed and you will be using it with a pivot , that way he is shunted off to the side , off balanced and not in a position to trap.

 

[geezer]

I'm in no way trying to disparage anyone here, but, are you sure that the people that you are now under have a firm grasp of what bong sau is?

I've seen so many times where people change something they see as wrong, when in fact there was an incomplete understanding of it.

I trained in AWTO for 10 years and am now a direct student of an old HK student of LT from back in the old days.
Speaking from personal experience, I brought quite a few misconceptions to the table. Had I simply left and "started my own organization", I would have been building from a faulty blueprint.

I agree with Yak. I personally know that the WT way of doing bong sau was consistent from the 70's through at least 2007. The guy I train with earned his Master ranking (Fifth Level Practition) directly from LT and only split away a few years ago. Other members of our group also reached high rank directly under LT and none of us have changed the basic structure and energy of the bong sau in poon sau as you describe. I'm pretty sure that GM Kernspecht of the EWTO teaches the same way. I admit that I don't know exactly what EBMAS uses these days, but last I heard, Emin had not totally changed how they do bong sau either. Now, there are people, like Victor Gutierrez in Spain who have made some pretty major changes, but he doesn't even call his stuff WT anymore. So the question is, who are you training under? What do they say?

 

[BloodMoney]

In the early stages of chi sau training it definitely helps with your focus , and forward force to have your fingers pointing to where you want them to go ie the centerline.

+1

Nearly ten years on and I still do this. Helps me keep forward intent, and you can latch horizontally with it better, also helps redirect force into the elbow and along, making it easy to stay relaxed.

I didn't even know there were two versions of Bong Sau.
I can't even think of how it could be improved , seems a bit like trying to improve the centerline punch , what are you going to do , make it even more centerliney ?

Yeah I didnt know there was two types. I dont know, does it count as two types if one is wrong and the other is right? Anything other than the trad bong sau is lazy in my opinion, and so not as structurally strong. I cant think of how one could improve the wing arm either.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Jiust wanted to chime in real quick, no time to read the other posts, so sorry if this has already been covered, that said I'll jump right in. I am 5th student level in ebmas, and the ideal bong sau I was taught is as follows:
elbow higher than the shoulder, shoulder obviously back in the socket, wrist below the shoulder, elbow facing towards the opponent, palm is facing as upwards as possible, tis a big stretch for us newbies, even some of the higher level students, I'm blessed with flexible shoulders though. so yeah, I would get my butt kicked my sifu if I was doing a lan sau instead of a bong sau.

 

[izeqb]

Jiust wanted to chime in real quick, no time to read the other posts, so sorry if this has already been covered, that said I'll jump right in. I am 5th student level in ebmas, and the ideal bong sau I was taught is as follows:
elbow higher than the shoulder, shoulder obviously back in the socket, wrist below the shoulder, elbow facing towards the opponent, palm is facing as upwards as possible, tis a big stretch for us newbies, even some of the higher level students, I'm blessed with flexible shoulders though. so yeah, I would get my butt kicked my sifu if I was doing a lan sau instead of a bong sau.

Thanks... very helpful...

 

[geezer]

...I didnt know there was two types. I dont know, does it count as two types if one is wrong and the other is right?

Yeah, looking at it that way, there are two ways to do anything!

BTW I love your signature. I've got a lot of respect for anyone who can be an instructor in one art and have the curiosity and humility to study a second art and honestly admit being a noob! I guess I've had to deal with too many people with the "I'm the all-knowing sifu" syndrome... if you know what I mean.

 

[BloodMoney]

elbow higher than the shoulder, shoulder obviously back in the socket, wrist below the shoulder, elbow facing towards the opponent, palm is facing as upwards as possible,

So, with the elbow higher than the shoulder, and your wrist below your shoulder, wouldnt that mean your elbow is pointing up in the air somewhat? Not being a smart ****, maybe you just explained it wrong, but that sounds like a really strange Bong mate...

Yeah, looking at it that way, there are two ways to do anything!

BTW I love your signature. I've got a lot of respect for anyone who can be an instructor in one art and have the curiosity and humility to study a second art and honestly admit being a noob! I guess I've had to deal with too many people with the "I'm the all-knowing sifu" syndrome... if you know what I mean.

Yeah, some of my Chun students attend the same BJJ classes (I brought them into it) and so I think a few of them get a chuckle seeing me be so crap at it after running classes for them the night before in Chun. A couple of them are a lot bigger than me too so when we grapple they kick my ****, so probably feels pretty damn good for them lol. One of my seniors at BJJ found out how long I had been doing Chun, and that I was senior to all the boys at BJJ in it (apart from one) and said "Wow so you could kick my ****?". I smiled and said "not on the ground I couldnt"

 

[Nabakatsu]

Yeah, the elbow is pointing a little bit in the air.