Mitose Forms

[Samurai]

What forms did James M. Mitose teach?
I think I heard that he only taught the Naihanchi forms.

Question Two: Has anyone heard of a form called Enn No Gyo Kata? There is a video tape on Ebay that teaches this form.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Samurai
What forms did James M. Mitose teach?
I think I heard that he only taught the Naihanchi forms.

Question Two: Has anyone heard of a form called Enn No Gyo Kata? There is a video tape on Ebay that teaches this form.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

It is my understanding from conversations with Ed Parker, that mitose didn't teach any forms
(or much else).
That's all I know.

 

[cassidy]

Mitose did teach , just not much parkers kempo. He taught kajukembo to quite a few people. And promoted them along with emperado.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Are you refering to the Mitose who brought kenpo/kempo to Hawai? He was a senior to Parker, and that prior to the development of a Parker Kenpo. But that was not the question...

 

[bart]

Hey,

When I studied Kosho, our teacher Bruce Juchnik, taught that Mitose did teach forms. Specifically he said, or at least my notes say, that he taught the juni ippo, naihanchi, pinan, neko buto forms along with a jo staff set and some sword forms. I don't know what they are though. There's another one called tensho, but I think that's just a manner of doing the forms. This was all back in 1990 though.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Are you refering to the Mitose who brought kenpo/kempo to Hawai? He was a senior to Parker, and that prior to the development of a Parker Kenpo. But that was not the question...

There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Because of the so-called collaboration it could be argued Mitose was in Chow's lineage, (and in defferance to the Tracy's was accepted by Parker) but even that depends on who you talk to. Chow studied and collaborated with many in the islands and it was refelcted in his diverse teaching.

The one thing that is clear and documented is that Mitose was a criminal and big time "con" man who was arrested for everything from rape, to his many victimizations and intimidations of the elderly, and who ultimately died in prison a convicted murderer.

Many feel his martial arts credentials were suspect and no one has ever found a documented connection to Mitose anywhere outside of Hawaii.

Although Chow taught Chaun fa forms briefly, he ultimately abandoned them in favor of his "reality" approach to so-called techniques, which in turn inspired Ed Parker to create his self defense system, and ultimately his commercial version of Kenpo that is most prominent today.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Mitose was in control of Chow. Chow also worked for Mitose. Lisa Chung who was the only female student of the original Hawaii Group indicated that "Willie" Chow would become extremely nervous when Mitose was present . Mitose was the man in charge in the orginal group according to those who were there.

Parker was Chow student etc. etc.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Doc
There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Because of the so-called collaboration it could be argued Mitose was in Chow's lineage, (and in defferance to the Tracy's was accepted by Parker) but even that depends on who you talk to. Chow studied and collaborated with many in the islands and it was refelcted in his diverse teaching.

The one thing that is clear and documented is that Mitose was a criminal and big time "con" man who was arrested for everything from rape, to his many victimizations and intimidations of the elderly, and who ultimately died in prison a convicted murderer.

Many feel his martial arts credentials were suspect and no one has ever found a documented connection to Mitose anywhere outside of Hawaii.

Although Chow taught Chaun fa forms briefly, he ultimately abandoned them in favor of his "reality" approach to so-called techniques, which in turn inspired Ed Parker to create his self defense system, and ultimately his commercial version of Kenpo that is most prominent today.

Mr. Chapel... your account of Mitose is 100% in line with what everyone has ever told me about him.

Why do Kenpoists of Tracy lineage seemingly revere this man so much? I've heard nothing but bad and embarrassing things about him.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
Mitose was in control of Chow. Chow also worked for Mitose. Lisa Chung who was the only female student of the original Hawaii Group indicated that "Willie" Chow would become extremely nervous when Mitose was present . Mitose was the man in charge in the orginal group according to those who were there.

Parker was Chow student etc. etc.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

I have have heard many things but never had I heard of Chow being "nervous" or intimadated by anyone, especially Mitose. In fact as the story goes, Mitose would go from school to school to intimidate people to 'come under him." Parker said that when he threatened to come back and kill Chow if he didn't comply, Chow reportedly said "come on I'll be waiting for you." Only when Mitose backed down did the collaboration begin later with mutual respect.

From a logic perspective, why would Chow feel a reason to be "nervous" in Mitose's precense when Chow's rep was as a take all comers "kick ***" nicknamed Thunderbolt for his legeandary island prowess as a fighter, and having studied with many on the islands including extensive jiu-jitsu and matwork from Henry Okazaki who respected Chow immensely.

I've never heard anyone speak of Mitose's skills and in fact having seen him myself along with other Parker black belts, what he displayed was less than mediocre and pure nonsense. This confirmed Ed Parker's own assessment and perception of Mitose's so-called skills.

Yes Mitose had a rep but it wasn't as a fighter, whereas Chow by all acounts was a legend.

The only people who have ever given credence to Mitose as a Martial artist are his own people who never trained with him physically (because he was incarcerated), and Al Tracy who went through extensive efforts to switch his lineage to Mitose and therefore had to for his own credibility. This supported by the Tracy "black sheep" Will Tracy hinself. In fact you cannot find any reference to "Kosho-Ryu" at all until Mitose came to the mainland.

No one ever thought of Mitose as a "kickass" but they were intimidated by his "black assasin" black chauffeurs that he threatened people with (who were unaware of his threats ).

Al and I go way back, and although he may not admit it, he knows I know the drill. Frankly Al really never needed Mitose anyway. What he did on his own in Kenpo is huge, and I submit that Tracy Eclipsed anything that Mitose might have done, over 30 years ago creating the most successful model of commercial schools ever in the histroy of the martial arts.

Obviously this is a debate that can go on because many have tied their lineage to Mitose. But Mitose is not in my or my instructors lineage and in my opinion, Al Tracy forgot more than Mitose ever knew for what that's work. That's it for me.

 

[kenmpoka]

First off, I have to say that I consider Doc to be a GREAT and knowledgeable teacher, be it techniques or history. Having said that, I do not agree with his opinions in regards to Mr. Mitose, specially 20-25 years prior to moving to the mainland. He was the most senior Kenpo/Kempo instructor in the islands and in fact the originator of all that what we now know as Kenpo or Kempo.The seed of all this mess was planted by him. Contrary to the recent posts, he was well respected among his contemporaries until in my opinion,he got greedy and corrupt. Mr. Chow did in fact study with Mr. Mitose in his brand of Kenpo Jujutsu later renamed Kosho Ryu Kempo. It is generally accepted that Mr. Chow had some knowledge of Chuan Fa and Jujutsu learned fom his older brothers, students of Okazaki Sensei. These facts have been confirmed By Sig Kufferath(?sp), deceased, The inheritor of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu and Mr. Chow's own brother that was one of the top seniors of Danzan Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo. Others like Sijo Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo have also confirmed the relationship between the men, as teacher and student.Btw, Mr. Emperado is himself a rank holder of Mr. Mitose and his teaching license was originally issued by Mr. Mitose. Mr. Chow continued evolving his ideas were as Mitose pursued other things that got him in trouble.

As far as the lineage Of SGM Parker goes, in my opinion like others in Kenpo/Kempo world, like it or not fall under Mr. Mitose. Just like Tode Sakugawa of Okinawa that taught Sokon Matsumura, who in turn taught Itosu and the rest followed. Now Itosu did not study with Sakugawa but with his student, and that is how the lineage is established.

As far as the katas in Kosho Ryu go, originally the system was taught as self defense only using techiques as means. One form was thought by Mr. Mitose, Naihanchi (Tekki). Thomas Young the most senior student of Mitose, with his permission brought over some forms from Shorin Ryu and Kyokushin (influence of bobby lowe). These were the Pinan forms and over the years others followed. Mr.Juchnik, one of the heads of the two Kosho organizations, has also devised and added to the system over the years.

If one looks carefully in the copy of Kenpo Jiujitsu of Mitose, you will see the BASE of tehniques such as twirling wings, crossing talon and many others.

Sincerely with all my respects (truly) to Doc and others.


:asian:

 

[John Bishop]

Well there's a whole lot of truth in both Doc. Chapel, and Kemnpoka's posts, and the complete truth died with Mitose.
As to the original question, according to Sijo Emperado (who was William Chow's first black belt and chief instructor) both Mitose and Chow only taught one kata, one of the "Naihanchi" katas.
And to clarify another post, Mitose never knew or taught Kajukenbo.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well there's a whole lot of truth in both Doc. Chapel, and Kemnpoka's posts, and the complete truth died with Mitose.
As to the original question, according to Sijo Emperado (who was William Chow's first black belt and chief instructor) both Mitose and Chow only taught one kata, one of the "Naihanchi" katas.
And to clarify another post, Mitose never knew or taught Kajukenbo.

Thank you sir, you saved me from having to make that post. We also all know Sijo Emperado was the driving force behind the creation of Kajukembo as the senior student of Chow and senior to Ed Parker, which Parker was quite proud to say often.

 

[Seig]

I do not have it with me, but in Infinite Insights, Mr. Parker quite clearly states that he was never a student of Mitose's and not in his lineage.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
First off, I have to say that I consider Doc to be a GREAT and knowledgeable teacher, be it techniques or history. Having said that, I do not agree with his opinions in regards to Mr. Mitose, specially 20-25 years prior to moving to the mainland. He was the most senior Kenpo/Kempo instructor in the islands and in fact the originator of all that what we now know as Kenpo or Kempo.The seed of all this mess was planted by him. Contrary to the recent posts, he was well respected among his contemporaries until in my opinion,he got greedy and corrupt. Mr. Chow did in fact study with Mr. Mitose in his brand of Kenpo Jujutsu later renamed Kosho Ryu Kempo. It is generally accepted that Mr. Chow had some knowledge of Chuan Fa and Jujutsu learned fom his older brothers, students of Okazaki Sensei. These facts have been confirmed By Sig Kufferath(?sp), deceased, The inheritor of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu and Mr. Chow's own brother that was one of the top seniors of Danzan Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo. Others like Sijo Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo have also confirmed the relationship between the men, as teacher and student.Btw, Mr. Emperado is himself a rank holder of Mr. Mitose and his teaching license was originally issued by Mr. Mitose. Mr. Chow continued evolving his ideas were as Mitose pursued other things that got him in trouble.

As far as the lineage Of SGM Parker goes, in my opinion like others in Kenpo/Kempo world, like it or not fall under Mr. Mitose. Just like Tode Sakugawa of Okinawa that taught Sokon Matsumura, who in turn taught Itosu and the rest followed. Now Itosu did not study with Sakugawa but with his student, and that is how the lineage is established.

As far as the katas in Kosho Ryu go, originally the system was taught as self defense only using techiques as means. One form was thought by Mr. Mitose, Naihanchi (Tekki). Thomas Young the most senior student of Mitose, with his permission brought over some forms from Shorin Ryu and Kyokushin (influence of bobby lowe). These were the Pinan forms and over the years others followed. Mr.Juchnik, one of the heads of the two Kosho organizations, has also devised and added to the system over the years.

If one looks carefully in the copy of Kenpo Jiujitsu of Mitose, you will see the BASE of tehniques such as twirling wings, crossing talon and many others.

Sincerely with all my respects (truly) to Doc and others.


:asian:

Hey P.T.
You know in all the things we've discussed over time this seems to be the only area we disagree. That's a pretty good track record considering I had more disagreements than that with Ed Parker. In the big picture I guess it doesn't really matter and I'll still go teach on Tuesday and Mitose won't come up. I wish you could have seem him though. really bad. See you soon Buddy, and thank you for the very kind words.:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Thanks Doc, John Bishop and Kenmpoka for making these posts.
I was not there, nor was I part of the West Coast scene... Having gotten my beatings ... er ... training in Texas in the early years.

I, for one, and as a Tracy Kenpoist, do not revere Mitose. Personally, he may have been the greatest karateka that ever lived, but with his rep and actions, I don't think I would have bothered to be associated with him.

Having said that, I will say this ... Al Tracy is not crazy, nor is he stupid. He has, I know, invested thousands of dollars and hours into his investigation of Mitose and the Mitose clan history. There, in fact, may be much more to the story than any of us, up to and including SGM Parker, knew or do currently know. I can not imagine Al doing that and tying himself to Mitose simply on a whim. Nonetheless, Mitose is part and parcel of all of our history and lineage to a greater or lesser extent simply because, if for no other reason, he was there and had a hand in how things developed.

But you guys are right... There are some glaring inconsistencies in what is in the book and what we do (both EPAK and Tracy). Now that could simply be due to my lack of the ancient wisdom too.

Dan

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Doc
There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Senior as in older. The other remark meaning that the time they could have meet/train/fight or whatever together was prior to Parker's development of Parker Kenpo, thus it was imposible that Mitose would have taught any Parker Kenpo form. Nothing else.
Sorry if the wording implies other things, but I usually write messages after arriving home tired at 11pm.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by Doc
I have have heard many things but never had I heard of Chow being "nervous" or intimadated by anyone, especially Mitose. In fact as the story goes, Mitose would go from school to school to intimidate people to 'come under him." Parker said that when he threatened to come back and kill Chow if he didn't comply, Chow reportedly said "come on I'll be waiting for you." Only when Mitose backed down did the collaboration begin later with mutual respect.

From a logic perspective, why would Chow feel a reason to be "nervous" in Mitose's precense when Chow's rep was as a take all comers "kick ***" nicknamed Thunderbolt for his legeandary island prowess as a fighter, and having studied with many on the islands including extensive jiu-jitsu and matwork from Henry Okazaki who respected Chow immensely.

I've never heard anyone speak of Mitose's skills and in fact having seen him myself along with other Parker black belts, what he displayed was less than mediocre and pure nonsense. This confirmed Ed Parker's own assessment and perception of Mitose's so-called skills.

Yes Mitose had a rep but it wasn't as a fighter, whereas Chow by all acounts was a legend.

The only people who have ever given credence to Mitose as a Martial artist are his own people who never trained with him physically (because he was incarcerated), and Al Tracy who went through extensive efforts to switch his lineage to Mitose and therefore had to for his own credibility. This supported by the Tracy "black sheep" Will Tracy hinself. In fact you cannot find any reference to "Kosho-Ryu" at all until Mitose came to the mainland.

No one ever thought of Mitose as a "kickass" but they were intimidated by his "black assasin" black chauffeurs that he threatened people with (who were unaware of his threats ).

Al and I go way back, and although he may not admit it, he knows I know the drill. Frankly Al really never needed Mitose anyway. What he did on his own in Kenpo is huge, and I submit that Tracy Eclipsed anything that Mitose might have done, over 30 years ago creating the most successful model of commercial schools ever in the histroy of the martial arts.

Obviously this is a debate that can go on because many have tied their lineage to Mitose. But Mitose is not in my or my instructors lineage and in my opinion, Al Tracy forgot more than Mitose ever knew for what that's work. That's it for me.

Hi Doc,

Just wanted to let you know at the the first Gathering of Eagles I had a chance to visit with Sig Kufferath and touch on some of our lineage. He confirm our lineage and from a historical perspective we all, Kenpo folks, share the same "roots".

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[kenpo_cory]

OK, I have a question regarding the forms in American Kenpo. If Mr. Parker was Professor Chow's student and Professor Chow didn't teach any forms, with the exception of maybe one that I've heard of so far, then why did Mr. Parker and his students take such time creating the forms of American Kenpo. Obviously with the skill Mr. Parker showed it is not necessary to teach the forms in order to teach all of the principles and concepts.

 

[arnisador]

Please, consider trimming your quotes!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
OK, I have a question regarding the forms in American Kenpo. If Mr. Parker was Professor Chow's student and Professor Chow didn't teach any forms, with the exception of maybe one that I've heard of so far, then why did Mr. Parker and his students take such time creating the forms of American Kenpo. Obviously with the skill Mr. Parker showed it is not necessary to teach the forms in order to teach all of the principles and concepts.

The first four forms were created for mainland Kenpo by Grandmaster Jimmy Wing Woo (collaberation request by Parker). Subsequently many of Ed Parker's early black belts followed Woo later. This happened in 60's! The rest is history as well.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com