Doc
Senior Master
..told you he was smart.
Mitose Forms
- Thread starter Samurai
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..told you he was smart.
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I strongly urge you to read Infinite Insights Volume 1 pages 20-22, before this discussion proceeds any furhter.
Doc
Senior Master
I'm kinda familiar with those books, being represented in all of them. But I also knew Ed Parker well, and I know what he wrote and why, because I asked. As I stated before he said certain things in print to avoid controversy and in deference to former associates like Al Tracy, Ralph Castro, as well as Chow himself. Everybody was shufling positions to enhance their marketability, prominece and increase the size of their "stick" or to shape their own history.
Those books were not written as American Kenpo "bibles" as some want them to be. They were conceptual compilations written for the entire martial arts community that he truly hoped to reach. (The reason for its conceptual rather than specific format). He knew this was a very touchy area at the time so he attempted to protray Mitose as at least "patriotic," and even showed a favorable position on the insert "Familty Tree." But that was a long way from his private stance which many like Dennis Conatser would have heard personally from the "Old Man's" mouth as I did. Mitose was EVERYTHING he hated about people in the arts and he despised Mitose and would become angry when his name came up.
Personally I take a great deal of what was "written" for what it is. Much of what he told me and others, actually contridicted information written for the martial arts public in general, whom he was attempting to get to embrace his philosophies. He was attempting to reach beyond Kenpo to all martial artists.
I suggest you re-read those pages more closely from a more critical perspective. Ed Parker made unflattering comments about Mitose's so-called skills and makes reference to him imparting only "rudiments and Japanese philosophy" to Chow not "Kenpo knowledge." He uses words like "supposedly" when referring to Mitose's lineage. Read more closely and it reveals contridictions in itself as the man tiptoed through the mind field perception of Mitose created by others for their own purposes. Many myths still persist. Some even say Mitose taught Kajukembo to Sijo Emperado. Also not true. What stands out is Mitose didn't seem to teach anybody anything until he went jail.
Years later as people changed lineages and history to suit themselves even more, Parker became more and more vocal publicly and angry on the issue. He was even preparing to re-do Infinite Insights and interpret some of his previous statements more directly, and change some presentations to reflect a more direct unvarnished (read angry) point of view.
He was cutting ties, kicking butt, taking names, and assuming a less diplomatic position on just about everything. He had reached a point in his life where all bets were off. There some failed business projects and he had fired and/or divorced himself from many of his prominent student/associates and was literally "cleaning house and tossing out the garbage." The many names would shock you. (No I'm not telling here).
He was "pissed" at the direction some things had taken and he was preparing to launch a new chain of commercial schools using "The Perfect Weapon" as a springboard. He was restructuring his West Los Angeles School, actually getting back on the floor and teaching regularly on Thursday nights, something he hadn't done in decades. He was making decisions about the then closed Pasadena school from an arson fire. He had a list of people he was preparing to sue for various reasons. He was in attack mode and was not letting anything "slide." He kept me (and others) busy doing many "investigations" of people. places, and things.
In 1990 just before he passed on, he did an interview for the now defunct Karate Illustrated Magazine, (KI) and expressed a different and more honest and angry tone about Mitose. Here's an excerpt paste.
Question: Master Parker, some people have been saying that you never studied with James Mitose?
Parker: I never did study with Mitose, I saw him when I was 16 years old and he showed me nothing. Chow on the other hand was impressive.
Question: James Mitose went to prison later, didn't he?
Parker: Yes he went to prison. As a matter of policy, he could not have taught his art to anyone. Therefore the people who claimed to have earned diplomas from him during his time are mistaken. Someone named Gollub, a Ju-Jitsu practitioner, when confronted about this, he said the certificate was for the spiritual side of the art, not the physical side, making the certificate worthless.
Question: It's my understanding that Mitose had quite an extensive prison record?
Parker: Yes he did. One of the prison guards who was in my association gave me his rap sheet. Mitose was arrested in 1935 for attempted rape and also for extortion. He was quite a con man. Mitose used to wear a minister's outfit all the time, but he wasn't a legitimate minister. In the early 70's when he was a guest in my home, Mitose tried to entice me into working with him. He talked about raising ten million dollars to build a Kenpo temple and he wanted me to run it. I told him that I didn't want any part of his schemes. They're now saying that they're going to come out with the true other half of the Kenpo story. I know the Kenpo story. I was a part of it.
http://mawn.net/feat3.htm
No Offense but, "I suggest you read." I don't have to, I was there. It's not history to me.
Doc
Senior Master
What the .......
What does a person have to do to get promoted around here?
I was a blue belt now I've been demoted to purple.
I demand a recount, retest, or something. I'm gonna hold my breath until I make black. (belt)
What does a person have to do to get promoted around here?
I was a blue belt now I've been demoted to purple.
I demand a recount, retest, or something. I'm gonna hold my breath until I make black. (belt)
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
That'll be a new guiness record. 200 msg written holding your breath :rofl: :rofl:
Talk to the moderator. They have people going from yellow to orange to green to blue to purple to brown to black. You see, we kenpo folks get first to green and then are demoted twice!!
Talk to the moderator. They have people going from yellow to orange to green to blue to purple to brown to black. You see, we kenpo folks get first to green and then are demoted twice!!
kenmpoka
Blue Belt
So Mr. Conatser, Are you offending me personally, or the Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo practitioners, NCKKA, Tracys and many others, who simply acknowledge Mr.Mitose to have planted the seed of Kenpo in the Islands without any reverence to his character or even his knowledge or the lack thereof and just his place in Kenpo/Kempo history? Every family tree that I have seen places this man's name at the top!
May be if he would have called his art Mondo Jiujitsu, it would have evolved to, Chinese Mondo Karate, American Mondo Karate, American Mondo, or simply Mondo!!!
That is all, a man who started something that turned into this wonderfull art that is now cherished by many and feard by others.
This character assassinations must stop. Or Kenpo/Kempo will never be respected by the world and frankly it would take another five generations to spread the message.
I hope that have not offended you or Doc.
Respectfully,
Doc
Senior Master
Not me. Everyone has a point of view. Mine was shaped by my teacher and what I saw. In the end, I only mention it if someone aks my perspective and relay parker's words.
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
First off........... It is Con at ser [many make that s & t mistake]
Geeze, I certainly hope not! That is not the intent. I just agreed with Chape'l's comments. I'm sure he was not trying to offend you or others either. But fact is fact.
To me, it would be irrelevant as to what "he" called his system, my feelings would not change due to what Mr. Parker told me.
I think that is the source of controversy...... What did he start.... I don't agree with or follow the Mitose claims.....
I never talk about Mitose...... not trying to assassinate him, the court system exposed that already, this is hard fact.... (some seem to find that hard to accept .... still) don't care what he does or did .... and if someone else wants to believe his claims...... go for it.... but don't try to tell me that what I do is connected otherwise I will speak out.
I don't understand what you are talking about ........ "My Kenpo" is and has always been respected, another 5 generations will only strengthen it.
Well, I don't speak for anyone else, but I think it is unique that you make this statement after what you posted.:rofl:
:asian: respectfully, of course.
G
GouRonin
Guest
Doc, I have heard before that the tree in the Infinite Insight books was very political. Some of the parts of your post here are revealing of that and that Ed Parker only listed his tree as such because he was trying to reach out and encompass many people, even those past the Kenpo lineage.
Your wrap up of the post seems to imply that he was beginning a new phase where he no longer felt he had to be so "Politically correct" of what he said and felt. If he had re-done the II series of books would we have seen a more true lineage tree and what, without naming names, do you think the fallout of such a re-print would have been as best as you can describe tactfully.
If you would like to e-mail this to me I would understand as well. Thanx.
Dave Simmons
Green Belt
The fact is we, Kenpo Folks, have roots. Although I do not always agree with Doc and Dennis Conatser we all have "common roots". That being said many times, we have all moved on to grow in Kenpo. My most recent experience is I do not fully agree with Al Tracy and have broken away from Tracy International. Yet I still am respectfull to him and our family tree. I respect our hertige because to move forward and grow in Kenpo a person must understand the past not deny it. I respect my American Kenpo brothers and sisters there is nothing to gain by "putting everyone down" who doesnt agree with our own journey. Just my input for what is worth.
Dave Simmons
http:/www.mnkenpo.com
kenmpoka
Blue Belt
Sorry, I did edit your name, It just did not go through. Over all I think that you missed the point I was trying to make. This string began with, What forms did Mitose teach?
Salute,
K
Kirk
Guest
Amen!
Doc
Senior Master
Let me put it this way. If you don't want an honest answer, please don't ask. I always attempt to be honest and forthright when I can, and I don't put "everyone" down, but I'm not going to lie either. Chastise the person who brought Mitose up, not those who answered the questions as honestly as they could.
That is what this forum is about, information. Certainly it would have been nice if some had maybe come to my defense when people were "putting me down," and I've never ripped anyone off, been busted, convicted of anything, and I'm still alive. No one ever tip toed around my feelings, and like it or not, I am senior to most of the so-called seniors with rare exceptions.
Second of all, Mitose died in prison as a convicted murderer. After that there's nothing I could say to put him down.
Third, my personal Kenpo roots begin and end with Ed Parker. No one, including Chow, before him had anything remotely close to the system HE created in American Kenpo. His previous training only gave him the conceptual idea of a self-defense focus. He created Kenpo as far as I am concerned.
Fourth, I have said nothing that isn't already documented somewhere else and of public record, including Ed Parker's own books and interviews.
Ed Parker went out of his way and fought hard against those who wanted to claim some kind of Japanese Lineage. He divorced himself from that kind of thinking, (and published Secrets of Chinese Karate to show the real roots of his art in 62') but he knew the distortions would persist no matter what he said for those who would "out Japanese the Japanese."
Parker believed always in giving credit where credit is due, he just didn't think
Mitose deserved any.
MY OPINION:
Al Tracy made Mitose. If not for Al, I don't think anybody would give a rats tootoo. I certainly don't, and I didn't create any of those truths.
Hint: I've had communication with the Tracy organization lately and I am very aware of his organization restructuring. I still have a couple of dimes left. (ain't that right "Big St. Lou?)
I apologize to anyone who might feel I brought up some ghosts, it was not my intention. I just prefer to whenever posssible give informative answers to questions.
Go Raiders!
R
Rainman
Guest
Good guys wear Ba-Lack!
Doc
Senior Master
Yes it was. In one case in particular, I was asked to "edit" (one "senior's) black belt list and removed as many as I could that I knew didn't belong, but many still got on there that weren't even kenpo black belts. One even made it to the "Journey." (I ain't tellin')
You have no idea. He was pissed and heads were rolling like bowling balls in an alley. Some reallly big names. Dennis knows most of them. Hell Parker didn't make it much of a sceret anyway.
Well the tree would have been definitely different but, more importantly, some who were in the original series would not have made the cut on the re-do. Some have noticed that when he started his video series, although some were just not available, he really went out of his way to intentionally NOT include some people. Even to the point he used mostly unknowns and his own daughter, (who wasn't even studying at the time), as Edmund shot the series and animated it. I appeared briefly on a couple techniques and was the announcer. I'm telling you He was just really really mad at a bunch of folks that had got away with a lot of stuff for a long time, and talked a bunch of stuff about him behind his back, (they thought). He had lost A LOT of money and business opportunities, as he had earlier in his career and hw as have flashbacks. Truthfully, it happened in every generation of black belts. It was all about 2 things; Money and rank. Once you had one you could go after the other and nobody wanted a middleman named Parker. So he just remained as cordial as possible with all of them for business, but he never ever forgot. Late in the eighties after a couple of bad experiences at schools he owned, he just said "fu*k it" and started the heads rolling. And if you knew Ed parker, whenever he used that word, it was really serious.
But all the law suits and the public declarations and magazine interviews would have shown he had no real protegé's, and would have made everything self evident. I know Dennis was real close at the end and he probably knows pretty much the same info I do, so I'm not alone. There are others that know as well, but name-ing folks at this point in time really serves no purpose. Everybody is doing there thing and "The Old Man" is gone.
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K
Kirk
Guest
Dr Chapel,
My post wasn't in regards to Mitose. It was just chiming in on
the comment about the constant in-fighting that goes on between
camps. And it's not just Tracy/EPAK, it's organization to
organization within EPAK. That's all I was saying.
My post wasn't in regards to Mitose. It was just chiming in on
the comment about the constant in-fighting that goes on between
camps. And it's not just Tracy/EPAK, it's organization to
organization within EPAK. That's all I was saying.
Doc
Senior Master
That's not fair. You know I can't disagree with that.
K
KenpoPower
Guest
I haven't read all the posts, so I appologise if this has already been posted.
Infinite Insights, Book 1 on the bottom of page 21 clarifies the statement made earlier.
This small paragraph explains it all. " Contrary to some of the claims that have been made in publications, I was never a student of James Mitose".
In fact if you read further in the paragraph, you will find more interesting reading regarding Mitose.
Robert Ashmore
Infinite Insights, Book 1 on the bottom of page 21 clarifies the statement made earlier.
This small paragraph explains it all. " Contrary to some of the claims that have been made in publications, I was never a student of James Mitose".
In fact if you read further in the paragraph, you will find more interesting reading regarding Mitose.
Robert Ashmore
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
LOL, I was just going with the flow. I didn't bring up the issue, I have commented on this same topic before. Since someone offered an opinion that I agreed with --- I posted that I supported the same views, that's all.
I'm personally really not interested in debating the Mitose topic further I have my own views and understandings.
Respectfully,
The Emperor
:asian:
