Mitose Forms

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL, I was just going with the flow. I didn't bring up the issue, I have commented on this same topic before. Since someone offered an opinion that I agreed with --- I posted that I supported the same views, that's all.

I'm personally really not interested in debating the Mitose topic further I have my own views and understandings.

Respectfully,
The Emperor
:asian:

No problem Sir. I know you were going with the flow.

Respectfully,
The Supreme Professor.

:asian: :asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

A very cool read, and always good to see cool heads prevail. It proves again it's the person not the art.
Yours in the Arts,

 

[Samurai]

WOW- What are all these worms going out of the can?? I must have open that can without knowing it !!

I am the person that started this thread (about the forms that Mitose taught). I simply asked this question because I saw a video tape on Ebay by Bruce Junick about a kata called "En Gyo No Kata" and I was wondering what that what (round Japanese translation in 'Circle Training Kata'?)

I am really happy to see many minds come together and reveal such great information about Mitose, Chow, Parker, and others. I am not a American Kenpoist but I have learned a lot.

One more question to ask here....
My teacher claimed to teach an art called Chinese Kenpo-Jistu. He gave me a brown belt in this but I can not find any historical information anywhere. I sort of this this is a made up art and I do not claim it on my "martial arts resume". Any ideas or information? I was wondering if it was linked to Mitose's system called Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu but he claimed a Japanese base?

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Doc
What the .......

What does a person have to do to get promoted around here?

I was a blue belt now I've been demoted to purple.

I demand a recount, retest, or something. I'm gonna hold my breath until I make black. (belt)

You will, shortly, receive via mail, a certificate which is suitable for framing or wrapping fish. This certificate will declare you to any and all to be an Exalted 12th Degree in the infamous and nefariously efficient "St. Lou' Ryu". It indicates that you are proficient in tire iron, 9 mil, both semi and full automatic. Further it will declare you a Man among men, a veritible Ubermensch! Further, it will entitle you to one - three hour trip to the local Chinese Buffet should you ever show up in the home of the infamous and nefariously efficient "St. Lou Ryu" Master Instructor,
Honorable Master Kung Fu.

You will also be taught the secret family system form. The form is 371 moves that teach you the multiplicity of techniques against single and multiple attackers using a Beretta 9, 2 Beretta 9s, the little known S&W Model 76 Stove Pipe Full Auto 9 mil, and the equally little known secret techniques of multiple defense using the Sears & Roebuck ten dollar tire iron.

Figured while you are holding your breath you might as well get something useful from it! :lol:

Dan

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Doc

I suggest you re-read those pages more closely from a more critical perspective.........
http://mawn.net/feat3.htm

No Offense but, "I suggest you read." I don't have to, I was there. It's not history to me.

That was exactly my point

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig
That was exactly my point

I see. My Apologies.

 

[kelly keltner]

nonsense

 

[kelly keltner]

enn no gyo was a kata developed by Mr. Juchnik dedicated to the memory of James Mitose. It would represent the attributes of the monkey.

kell

 

[Seig]

How very appropriate.

 

[Karazenpo]

Okay, I've read all the posts and I have to put in my two cents in all due respect to everyone's opinion. Like Doc had said, you ask for a truthful opinion and he gave one. Nothing wrong with that, you can agree or disagree but we should all respect it, so here's mine. I tend to agree with Brother Peter (Kempoka) and I would like to elaborate a little. I will give fact and opinion. Fact: Thomas Young signed William Chow's black belt certificate. Young's certificate was signed by James Mitose. Ed Parker's was signed by William Chow. This, in anybody's language connects the dots on lineage. If you don't believe in lineage, fine, but if you do this stands undisputed. Also, the talk about Chow's Kung Fu training-there is currently no more published documentation of Chow's Kung Fu training then there is of Mitose training at the Shaka-In Temple in Japan! Professor Jaimie Abregana of Hawaii has been involved in an A&E investigation entitled: Hawaii: The Gateway to the Martial Arts and Mitose has, from what I understand, been traced to the Motobu lineage, not directly but throught a Motobu black belt. 1st or 2nd generation (I have already posted this history with names, etc. on another topic on this forum with info. supplied to me by John Bishop). Now, there is more information we are presently awaiting documentation of from Shihan Mike Brown, a highly respected martial artist and historian from Rhode Island also connecting Mitose to Japan. Regardless of this outcome the fact is Mitose started the whole ball of wax and I totally agree with the way Brother Peter put it and I will agree with something Al Tracy had said: No Mitose-No Kenpo! Trust me on this one, being a seasoned police officer I am no way a fan of Mitose but I also believe in giving the devil his due. Also Doc stated, and Doc I've learned a lot from you through our correspondence and have the utmost respect for you as we are both brothers in two ways but you stated no one has ever attested to Mitose's ability. A couple of years ago I asked the same thing. Brother Gerry Scott, Kajukenbo of Hawaii acted as an intermediate and brought some of my questions to Sijo Emperado. I asked if Mitose just had a study of the 'surface arts', had some natural ability, put it together and started this thing we call kenpo. He stated Mitose's abilities were those of a master instructor and that the seniors back then always felt Mitose's Kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never gave any proof of it. Again, I have this conversation posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe forum of which I am a moderator. I suppose if we observed the old 'Te' masters of Okinawa, we in the 21st century would not be too impressed either. As a matter of fact, when I look at the old pictures of the old Okinawans' doing techniques it looks totally impractical by today's standards! Everyone would have to agee on that. Like it or not, Mitose was the catalyst that ignited the flame that gave us all the fine systems we practice today. One other thing. First, I also have the utmost respect for Mr. Ed Parker and his contributions to the arts but I did notice he did the 'John Kerry Flip-Flop' on the Mitose issue. Parker had a column in Black Belt magazine (Doc and I discussed this), I have the magazine in my possesion and he said nothing but good things about Mitose's teachings and his place in the Kenpo world. I also have Infinite Insights and it is nothing at all like what's written there. This is fact and in other posts I've listed the magazine's date and volume and have even posted excerpts from the article. I'll tell you, this kenpo thing is more controversial than the war in Iraq! Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Gentle Fist]

Once again Joe, great post!!!

What is the system that Motobu's son teaches now? Is it the same as before, or slightly modified?

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Professor Shuras, is the Motobu student the one who possibly challenged Thomas Miyashiro? What's your take on the Mutsu Mizuho's "Kenpo karate" compared to Mitose's book? Konishi was a heavy supporter of Motobu whom he helped develop a bit of an entourage. Alot of his kumite concepts were absorbed by guys like Ohtsuka of Wadu ryu kenpo jiujitsu and Nagamine in his Yakusoku kumite. One can compare Motobu to Mitose and then Mitose to Mizuho and it fits closer to the latter. Mizuho main instruction was in Tokyo with Otsuka and Funakoshi, although he travelled to Okinawa to research. By his books and his son Chosei, Motobu like to hit which was suited to his brawling. The twists aren't there. Mitose shared Motobu's makiwara style and Naihanchi but his waza is markedly different. Motobu was infamous for his skill with ippon-ken while Mitose favors the midde-knuckle strike as in Funakoshi lineage. I am leaning towards Funakoshi>Otsuka(Motobu influence)>Mizuho>Mitose. Then confused about Robert Trias/Mitose connection because of the Kosho crest in the background of Trias's book and his claims of Motobu's style. But Trias's methods look nothing like Motobu's and have their Naihanchi kata are different. And where's the Hsing I except for a couple tiger claws? As a foot note Funakoshi's karate was still closer to shorin ryu. The developments by his son Gigo and others were still in the making. Whew!

 

[Karazenpo]

Professor Shuras, is the Motobu student the one who possibly challenged Thomas Miyashiro? What's your take on the Mutsu Mizuho's "Kenpo karate" compared to Mitose's book? Konishi was a heavy supporter of Motobu whom he helped develop a bit of an entourage. Alot of his kumite concepts were absorbed by guys like Ohtsuka of Wadu ryu kenpo jiujitsu and Nagamine in his Yakusoku kumite. One can compare Motobu to Mitose and then Mitose to Mizuho and it fits closer to the latter. Mizuho main instruction was in Tokyo with Otsuka and Funakoshi, although he travelled to Okinawa to research. By his books and his son Chosei, Motobu like to hit which was suited to his brawling. The twists aren't there. Mitose shared Motobu's makiwara style and Naihanchi but his waza is markedly different. Motobu was infamous for his skill with ippon-ken while Mitose favors the midde-knuckle strike as in Funakoshi lineage. I am leaning towards Funakoshi>Otsuka(Motobu influence)>Mizuho>Mitose. Then confused about Robert Trias/Mitose connection because of the Kosho crest in the background of Trias's book and his claims of Motobu's style. But Trias's methods look nothing like Motobu's and have their Naihanchi kata are different. And where's the Hsing I except for a couple tiger claws? As a foot note Funakoshi's karate was still closer to shorin ryu. The developments by his son Gigo and others were still in the making. Whew!

The Motobu student in question, from what I understand, was not a notable martial artist of this era. I'm not saying he wasn't highly skilled but what I mean is he wasn't a famous Okinawan as was some of the others you have listed. His name was Nabura Tanahama. I don't know if he is the same one you mentioned in that challenge but I tend to doubt it because I think we would have heard about him before this A&E investigation. Sigung Bishop told me the information came from a 92 year old classmate of Mitose who is still living. Yes, I feel Mizuho's Kenpo Karate is what is demonstrated in Mitose's book, "What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu Jitsu)" which can be seen on the Tracy website. It is believed by many that Mitose plagiarized Mizuho's book. Also if you check out Mitose's book, Robert Trias' book, "The Hand is My Sword" and Ed Parker's book, "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and Empty Hand", you will see many similiarities in techniques-many! That's why I believe we're all tied into the same lineage. I am positive that Robert Trias was friendly with James Mitose and they more than likely exchanged some knowledge. I confirmed this relationship with Gm. Trias' daughter, Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley. Yeah, I know what you mean about the crest but you figure if Mitose did study under one of Motobu's student's than he would recognize Motobu as being his 'master' so to speak and Trias as a connection to this lineage. Here's something else that I found in my research that I thought was very interesting. We've all heard of the Chinese emmissary or general that was one of the pioneers who brought the Chinese arts to Okinawa-Kusanku, whom a form bears his name, well, the name Kusanku goes by several different spellings and guess what? One of those spellings is 'KOSHO"!!!! Something to think about, I'd say!

 

[Karazenpo]

Once again Joe, great post!!!

What is the system that Motobu's son teaches now? Is it the same as before, or slightly modified?

Thank you, Fistlaw720. I really can't answer that question. I have no idea but perhaps someone else can help. Matt Barnes is also into the history of the arts and is very knowledgable, perhaps if he reads this post he can answer your question. "Joe"

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Thanks for you insight Professor Shuras! Kushanku/Kosho, wow very interesting. Another thing about the tale of Thomas Miyashiro's challenge is that he supposedly switched to kung fu to win, which would mean the tradition of chinese teaching only chinese/ okinawans only teaching okinawans etc. may have had exceptions in Hawaii. Its amazing how this stuff ends up linking together. It would great to hear more about Trias's early methods origin, so if anyone has it lets hear it. I am only familar with basics.

 

[KenpoDave]

Here's something else that I found in my research that I thought was very interesting. We've all heard of the Chinese emmissary or general that was one of the pioneers who brought the Chinese arts to Okinawa-Kusanku, whom a form bears his name, well, the name Kusanku goes by several different spellings and guess what? One of those spellings is 'KOSHO"!!!! Something to think about, I'd say!

I had originally heard that the name Kusanku, in the Okinawan dialect, is Kosho-kun. You are right, something to think about.

 

[Rob Broad]

I just finished reading this entire thread and I would like to say this is one of the best discussions I have read about the Mitose/Chow/Parker etc... lineage fiasco.

I know that Mitose was a criminal and died in prison.

I know the Chow was Parker's instructor. I know that Chow passed his system on to Sam Kuhoa(sp).

I know that all 3 men are no longer with with us and all of them are missed, it is just hard to find anyone that misses all 3 of them together.

I know that history is often re-written to fit peoples needs.

Since Chow, and Mitose are no longer with us we will never know the whole story, only what people like to spout to fit their needs. I take this with a grain of salt, and always take into consideration who wrote it and where it and why the topic was brought up.

Doc and Mr. C thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Some will heed well, others will use it to incite strife, some will learn from it, and some will be be ignorant of the whole message. I prefer to put the politics behind me these days, life is too short to be foolishly squabbling about history that can not be substantiated directly from the source.

 

[Seig]

Rob,
I largely agree with you. As instructors we owe it to our students to give them unvarnished facts about the history of our systems; not as we would like it to be, but as it is. I give my students the facts as I know them, I let them draw their own conclusions. I will give my opnion, if asked, only after they have examined the facts available. Then they are free to disagree with me, if they can base their argument in logic. I have disagreed with my own instructor in this manner. I usually do not change his mind, but receive a hell of an education in return.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thanks for you insight Professor Shuras! Kushanku/Kosho, wow very interesting. Another thing about the tale of Thomas Miyashiro's challenge is that he supposedly switched to kung fu to win, which would mean the tradition of chinese teaching only chinese/ okinawans only teaching okinawans etc. may have had exceptions in Hawaii. Its amazing how this stuff ends up linking together. It would great to hear more about Trias's early methods origin, so if anyone has it lets hear it. I am only familar with basics.

Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley did tell me she was working on a book about her father's life. This should answer a lot of questions and hopefully may shed some more light on the Mitose controversay and the martial ats in Hawaii during this era.

 

[kenmpoka]

I had originally heard that the name Kusanku, in the Okinawan dialect, is Kosho-kun. You are right, something to think about.

Hello,

Actually the Kata KUSANKU is the Okinawan pronounciation of the Chinese emissary of the Ming dynasty's name.
The names KOSOKUN or KOSHOKUN were used in Japan mainland. Funakoshi changed the name to KWANKU and later to KANKU (dai,sho). You have to have the Kanji to compare to Kosho-ryu (Ko-Matsu ryu). Sho / Matsu mean pine (tree), Ko means old. Kanji(s) might sound the same but not necessarily mean the same.

Respectfully,